Navy Cross uniform

[ww1collector]

Just got this from AGM Cat #84 item 316. I always feel lucky to get anything from the catalog-you really have to be speedy. This is a wool forest green winter working uniform, has bronzed buttons and black mohair Commander of the Line's stripes and insignia on the cuffs. A pair of gilted Balfour marked Naval Aviator wings are pinned above sewn-on 1/2 inch 8-place ribbons that include Navy Cross, Asiatic Theater with 3 stars, European Theater with one star, American Campaign, and WW2 Victory. Tag inside interior breast pocket shows pilot's name as "R.F. Klingerman". Raymond Fitzsinger Klingerman was designated a Naval Aviator in November 1943 and joined Night Fighting Squadron 74. He was awarded the DFC for operations in early 1945 when he participated in 20 strikes against enemy shipping, airfields and installations. In April 1945, he received the Navy Cross when he set a Navy record for carrier based night fighters by shooting down four twin-engine Japanese bombers within 24 hours. Tunic is fully lined with green satin material. Came with a great file containing copies of his Naval Aviator certificate, crew pictures, and pictures on the USS Bennington. Also included are copies of his original Air medal and Navy Cross, DFC citations. Several copies of newspaper articles about his exploits are also included. Needs a shirt and tie-what colors should they be?

[Mark M]

Great jacket but a couple questions on it. First, does his file state how he end up with two oak leaf clusters on his air medal? USN and USMC used gold stars to denote multiple awards, not OLCs. Second, does the file show how he earned a ETO ribbon with star?

 

Regards,

 

Mark

[TLeo]

I love that uniform! Very nice to grab one like that indeed :thumbsup: Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but it would be a khaki shirt and I think a dark blue/black tie to go with it.

 

EDIT.....I just noticed what the others did..the oak leafs and the ETO ribbon. Does his records show him in the ETO at some point? and it should be stars instead of oak leaves as mentioned. Maybe someone just restored the ribbons to it it incorectly if otherwise it is named and ID'd to him.

[KurtA]

The oak leaves on the Air Medal would leave me very concerned about the uniform. No way this was the way it would have been worn.

Kurt

[ww1collector]

His first air medal citation was for action from a North Corsican Base during an amphibious landing of Southern France in July and August 1944. Second Air Medal for pilot of a carrier based fighter group in the Pacific 16 Feb to 20 March 1945. 4th Air Medal for Pacific action 16 Feb. to 21 April 1945. I don't have a copy of the citation for the 3rd Air Medal. Will post citations when I get the chance. dave

[ww1collector]

The citations do call for gold stars for the AM, not oak leaf clusters. Dave

[Kadet]

As you explain, many US Navy personnel served in both theaters during the war. I think you would really need to understand this officer's service record/dates to assess this uniform. The Navy Reserve Medal is unusual. He was definitely a Reservist, but this medal was awarded for 10 years of reserve service between 1938 and 1958, when the Armed Forces Reserve Medal came into use. Yet, there are no pre or postwar ribbons on the uniform to indicate this span of service. Most Navy officers in WWII were activated reservists, but seeing that award on a WWII era ribbon bar is unusual because most didn't stay in the service long enough to earn it. You say he was designated a Naval Aviator in 1943...did he serve as an officer in some other capacity before becoming a pilot? What year was he commissioned? As others have stated, the oak leaves are wrong. This could be a mistake I guess, but usually Navy and Marine officer uniforms are pretty squared away. I suspect that, if all original, the tunic has been "restored" w/ the incorrect insignia (also looks like the oak leaves themselves don't match). The staggered application of the ribbons is odd as well...any sign that the ribbons have been re sewn to the uniform?

[Cobrahistorian]

Klingerman flew with VF-74, which was an F6F-3N nightfighter unit that flew in the ETO during Operation Dragoon. The ribbons (not the devices) are legit. I've got Sutton Lester Jaynes' uniform, who also flew with VF-74 in the ETO and I've got quite a bit of research material on the unit.

 

VERY Cool to see another uniform from this near-unheard of unit!

 

Jon

[Mark M]

Dave

 

Since you have his service records check to see when he made Commander (the rank on the uniform). His NC was awarded in January 1945 when he was only a Lieutenant JG. Those 1/2" ribbons on the uniform were pretty much phased out by 1948, so if the date of rank is after that it wouls support the uniform being restored.

 

Mark

[ww1collector]

Thanks to all for the comments. I am not feeling very warm and fuzzy about this. But, here is a little more info--He was commissioned Ensign on November 9, 1943. Don't know when he enlisted. His USNR retirement certificate shows a retirement date 27 Feb., 1980. I have a copy of his signature-will compare it to the writing in the unifrom label. Dave

[Kadet]

His commissioning date in the Naval Reserve plus the ten years required for the Reserve medal would give a good indicator of this uniform's era, although he may have had enlisted time in the Naval Reserve as well. My guess is that, if original, it dates from the very late 1940s. There is no NDSM, which he would have earned in June 1950, and that is quite a jump in rank for just a few years....maybe the stars came off and were replaced w/ oak leaves by someone that didn't understand the difference.......or perhaps as a reservist and NC winner, no one cared

[Cobrahistorian]

The uniform that I've got is from when Jaynes was a LCDR in Korea. He was an Ensign in WWII and commanded a Detachment of VC-61 flying F9F-2P and F2H-2P photo recon aircraft in Korea. My thought is, Klingerman probably was in a similar situation as a reservist and the ribbons were restored to the jacket.

 

I should add, that Jaynes' uniform has bullion wings sewn to it, but no ribbons attached to it.

[Mark M]

Dave

 

I would believe that the uniform is his but from a time period much later in his career, not WW2 vintage as the 1/2" ribbons would indicate. Still a very nice uniform to a NC winner!

 

Just out of curiosity though could you post a photo of the name tag?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

[KurtA]

I'll bet this was sold as a WW2 era uniform and wasn't cheap. At best, it's probably a restored uniform (and not by someone who knew what they were doing). If you're still in the return period, you might want to consider getting your money back. Otherwise you'll always be wondering about it.

Kurt

[jjdevi1]

Well, I'm going to throw a wrench into all of the "this isn't right" crowd. If the ribbon work was done by a tailor, the tailor could of screwed up and put oakleaves on the Air Medal ribbon instead of stars. I had an Army group with sewen on ribbons where the Bronze Star had a campaign ribbon star on it instead of an oakleaf. Remember that the WW2 guys grew up in the depression, and they didn't like to blow money. It might of cost more to fix the problem and he said "Oh hell, leave it alone". Just food for thought.

 

John

[Kadet]

Well, I'm going to throw a wrench into all of the "this isn't right" crowd. If the ribbon work was done by a tailor, the tailor could of screwed up and put oakleaves on the Air Medal ribbon instead of stars. I had an Army group with sewen on ribbons where the Bronze Star had a campaign ribbon star on it instead of an oakleaf. Remember that the WW2 guys grew up in the depression, and they didn't like to blow money. It might of cost more to fix the problem and he said "Oh hell, leave it alone". Just food for thought.

 

John

 

 

If this uniform had come from a garage sale or something, I would tend to agree w/ you...it didn't though. It was purchased from a dealer at (I'm sure) a premium price. Suspicion would be a wise course of action here IMO...

[Jack's Son]

Dave,

You put the uniform jacket up for inspection/opinions, and you are getting them.

If you are beginning to feel uncomfortable, perhaps you should consider your options.

Ultimately, you have to be happy with the purchase.

 

In any post like this one, there are always going to be "escape phrases" used to explain

away discrepancies. At this point the jacket "is what it is", either accept it, or return it.

[KASTAUFFER]

I guess I will give my 2 cents:

 

1.The name on the tailor label was probably written in by the tailor who made it, so comparing hand writing won’t tell you anything definitively unless the hand writing is a perfect match to the owner.

 

2.Every USN uniform I have ever had that I knew was “right“, had Gold Stars, never OLCs. Have you ever seen a US Army uniform with gold stars instead of OLCs? Unused WWII USN gold stars are VERY hard to find, so a restorer probably resorted to what was easily obtainable….. OLCs.

 

3. IMHO this uniform could have been his, but with restored ribbons.

 

Seeing the named tailor label will answer a lot.

 

Kurt

[ww1collector]

Thanks guys-here is a pic of the name tag. Dave

 

[gtpcamaroz]

Have you considered contacting AGM and asking them about this uniform? Jeff has an account on here and frequents the board.

[ww1collector]

I will be contacting Jeff. I did not put this out here thinking anything was wrong with it. It was a surprise to me to get the comments I did. I always learn something here. Dave

[gtpcamaroz]

Keep us posted. Maybe there is a logical explanation behind it all.

[KurtA]

Anything short of a period photo showing him wearing this exact uniform, request a refund.

Kurt

[teufelhunde.ret]

Dave,

You put the uniform jacket up for inspection/opinions, and you are getting them.

If you are beginning to feel uncomfortable, perhaps you should consider your options.

Ultimately, you have to be happy with the purchase.

 

In any post like this one, there are always going to be "escape phrases" used to explain

away discrepancies. At this point the jacket "is what it is", either accept it, or return it.

DITTO!!!! "it is what it is"

[Daughter in law]

I am Ray Klingerman's daughter in law. He is 93 and proud to be a navy cross recipient. He did serve in the reserves and retired with the rank of commander.