82nd / 17th ABN officer IKE uniform

[USMCRECON]

The pictures below are basically all I know about this officer to this point and as you see it is how I got it several years ago and it has been languishing in my uniform closet since, along with the one other ABN uniform in my collection. It has the IKE, matching trousers, and overseas hat.

 

It also has both 17th and 82nd ABN patches an oval that I've been told is for the 505th PIR, officer's crossed rifles (without PIR numerals), a single row of pin-back ribbons, jump wings with one star, and a sewn-on CIB. It has overseas-type bars on the bottom of the right sleeve and it looks like overseas bars have been removed from the left sleeve (could be they were moved to the other sleeve for some reason??). The picture of the o'seas hat was cropped down from a larget picture and, unfortunately, has become a bit fuzzy but you can get the idea.

 

Again, you see it is just as I got it. I have found no name but there is what I believe to be a partial service number inside the jacket. I'm currently working with the records center in St Louis to find more info on the owner. They have been very helpful and I hope to have an identification soon.

 

 

[CNY Militaria]

Overseas stripes were moved to the right sleeve of the uniforms after WWII...during the Korean War years IIRC. Whats the date on the tag inside the jacket?

[USMCRECON]

Overseas stripes were moved to the right sleeve of the uniforms after WWII...during the Korean War years IIRC. Whats the date on the tag inside the jacket?

 

That's a good question. I just went downstairs and looked. There are two dates on the tag. One is an Oct 44 and the other Apr 45. Being the particularly astute individual I am () I'm guessing Oct 44 is the pattern date and Apr 45 is the actual date it was made.

 

I didn't know the o'seas bars were moved. That would certainly answer the question of the "ghosts" on the other sleeve.

[glenm]

Hate to say it, but the uniform as-is doesn't add up.

 

The moved overseas bars imply post-war re-enlistment (not simply travelling home in 1945 with the 82nd when the "combat patches" on the right sleeve where first used), whereas the ribbons aren't enough for that time period (missing a few obvious ones for someone who would have been in at the end of the war).

 

The 505th oval is post-war (1950's), whereas the cap patch wasn't used by the 505th by the time they left the USA in 1943 (they'd changed to the combined one). The cap patch should definitely be a combined one in this uniform's post-war guise.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[USMCRECON]

Hate to say it, but the uniform as-is doesn't add up.

 

The moved overseas bars imply post-war re-enlistment (not simply travelling home in 1945 with the 82nd when the "combat patches" on the right sleeve where first used), whereas the ribbons aren't enough for that time period (missing a few obvious ones for someone who would have been in at the end of the war).

 

The 505th oval is post-war (1950's), whereas the cap patch wasn't used by the 505th by the time they left the USA in 1943 (they'd changed to the combined one). The cap patch should definitely be a combined one in this uniform's post-war guise.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

 

As I said, the uniform is as I got it. I buy your argument on the overseas hat patch. I don't know why it does not have a combined patch. As for the oval, I wondered about it as well as it seems "newer" thn the rest of the patches. It might well be one worn in the 82nd after the war; I do not have his service info yet and he may well have served in the 82nd well after the end of the war. It might also not belong. As it is, it is not sewn on the uniform but held there merely by the pin on the jump wings and, therefore, is pretty "temporary."

 

I'm not sure I understand the point regarding the overseas bars. The uniform is dated Apr of 1945. It is quite likely the guy did, indeed, wear it into the post war period service as well and, in that instance, assume he wound have moved the bars to the other sleeve.

 

As for the ribbons, the fact all ribbons that may have been earned do not appear on the jacket, particularly routine or "every-man" ribbons does not trouble me as much. When I retired after 30 years of service, I was authorized 12 rows of ribbons on my tunic. However, in actual daily wear, I hardly ever wore more than 3-4 rows (often even less) of the most significant ones.

 

All that aside, I do value your opinion, Glen, and appreciate you taking the time to comment on the uniform.

[louie]

Here's an enlisted Ike I found in a thrift shop years back. Kinda ratty shape, but I think it all legit..better be for the $5.00 I think I paid for it!!

[glenm]

As I said, the uniform is as I got it. I buy your argument on the overseas hat patch. I don't know why it does not have a combined patch. As for the oval, I wondered about it as well as it seems "newer" thn the rest of the patches. It might well be one worn in the 82nd after the war; I do not have his service info yet and he may well have served in the 82nd well after the end of the war. It might also not belong. As it is, it is not sewn on the uniform but held there merely by the pin on the jump wings and, therefore, is pretty "temporary."

 

I'm not sure I understand the point regarding the overseas bars. The uniform is dated Apr of 1945. It is quite likely the guy did, indeed, wear it into the post war period service as well and, in that instance, assume he wound have moved the bars to the other sleeve.

 

As for the ribbons, the fact all ribbons that may have been earned do not appear on the jacket, particularly routine or "every-man" ribbons does not trouble me as much. When I retired after 30 years of service, I was authorized 12 rows of ribbons on my tunic. However, in actual daily wear, I hardly ever wore more than 3-4 rows (often even less) of the most significant ones.

 

All that aside, I do value your opinion, Glen, and appreciate you taking the time to comment on the uniform.

 

Hi Bill,

 

What I was hoping to explain was that (assuming that the 2 patches and the overseas bars are original to the jacket) the uniform looks like it was worn by an Officer in the 82nd Airborne in the period 1946 onwards, stationed in the USA. He had previous wartime service in the 17th, but is currently serving in the 82nd (and I mean currently serving, not simply transferring home from Germany with them in late 45. This is the reason why the overseas bars have been transferred over to the right sleeve - jackets worn by troops being shipped back to the USA have the overseas bars still being worn on the left sleeve (even with a "combat" patch on the right sleeve), as the troops at that stage were still "employed" overseas, therefore the bars were still current. It is only when they stayed in the Army post-war and then weren't being deployed overseas but on-base in the USA that the overseas bars got transferred over to the other sleeves, showing previous overseas service during WWII.

 

If the above sceanrio is correct, and if that ribbon bar is original to the unform, then I would think that there is another row missing of ribbons issued at the end of the war (with the WWII Victory Medal, American Campaign Medal perhaps) that should be below this one. Even with some ribbons habitually not being worn, the above two ribbons normally appear on uniforms in the post-war period. The missing ribbons could have been removed to make the uniform appear more "wartime" than post-war. Who knows.....!

 

And no probs! Glad to be of service.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[USMCRECON]

Hi Bill,

 

What I was hoping to explain was that (assuming that the 2 patches and the overseas bars are original to the jacket) the uniform looks like it was worn by an Officer in the 82nd Airborne in the period 1946 onwards, stationed in the USA. He had previous wartime service in the 17th, but is currently serving in the 82nd (and I mean currently serving, not simply transferring home from Germany with them in late 45. This is the reason why the overseas bars have been transferred over to the right sleeve - jackets worn by troops being shipped back to the USA have the overseas bars still being worn on the left sleeve (even with a "combat" patch on the right sleeve), as the troops at that stage were still "employed" overseas, therefore the bars were still current. It is only when they stayed in the Army post-war and then weren't being deployed overseas but on-base in the USA that the overseas bars got transferred over to the other sleeves, showing previous overseas service during WWII.

 

If the above sceanrio is correct, and if that ribbon bar is original to the unform, then I would think that there is another row missing of ribbons issued at the end of the war (with the WWII Victory Medal, American Campaign Medal perhaps) that should be below this one. Even with some ribbons habitually not being worn, the above two ribbons normally appear on uniforms in the post-war period. The missing ribbons could have been removed to make the uniform appear more "wartime" than post-war. Who knows.....!

 

And no probs! Glad to be of service.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

 

Hi Glen. I do understand what you were saying in your earlier post and I believe you are right about it having been worn in the post-war period, probably in the 82nd ABN. I also believe, based on the existence of ghosts of the o'seas bars on the left sleeve, that it was also probably worn during late wartime (but likely post combat service).....the patches appear to be original to the uniform.

 

I also was wondering about the missing AM Camp, Victory, Occupation, etc. ribbons. It is possible that the fellow I got it from had removed a row. After reading your reply, I went down to the basement to look at it again. I unhooked the pin and swung the ribbon bar out to have a look underneath and there is an obvious and visible impression of it in the cloth underneath. There are no pinholes or impression of a second ribbon bar, either above or below; perhaps it could have been pressed out but, to me, it adds to the cconfusion.

 

I really don't know the answer about the ribbons but, as you suggested above, it is likely, even based solely on the fact that the o'seas bars were moved to the right, that it was also worn post war. Thanks again for your additional comment and insight. Every bit is helpful in my gaining understanding of my uniform collection from people like you who are in the know.