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Early USMC NCO Sword


tigerfan
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Recently picked up a nice early model 1859 USMC NCO sword. Appears to be a German made blade and imported by Horstmann. Some photos may not be the best. More photos to follow.

 

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Still-A-Marine

Outstanding sword. This is only the second one I have seen. I have one that is post CW. It does not have the king's head mark and the scabbard is metal covered in leather. My understanding is that the king's head mark would make yours actual CW period. I was also told that the leather only scabbard is correct for CW use. :thumbsup: Bill

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Still-A-Marine

Tigerfan - The hilt and drag on my sword have "No. 192" stamped on them. Does your sword have any numbers stamped? I was also under the impression that these are SNCO swords. I believe the NCO sword of the time was the model 1840. Can anybody clarify? Bill

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Still-A-Marine

I have noticed some other differences. The USMC font on our swords are not the same. The Horstmann logo is different along with the etching. Here are pictures of mine. Bill

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Great looking swords.

 

Really like seeing the variations.THe first sword shows a couple dents in the scabbard.Can you tell me if its leather cover steel or just leather??

 

Thanks

 

RD

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The scabbord is made of leather and not leather over metal. The "dents" are old creases in the leather where putting pressure on the scabbord without the sword inside would bend the leather rather easily. There are no numbers or markings stamped on the drag or the handle. It does appear to be one of the very early versions. It has the wider blade as opposed to the later version and the engraving is more like the civil war era "chicken scratch" engraving.

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The scabbord is made of leather and not leather over metal. The "dents" are old creases in the leather where putting pressure on the scabbord without the sword inside would bend the leather rather easily. There are no numbers or markings stamped on the drag or the handle. It does appear to be one of the very early versions. It has the wider blade as opposed to the later version and the engraving is more like the civil war era "chicken scratch" engraving.

 

 

Roger

 

Thanks for the details.This type of damage often encountered on the leather scabbards.See many that have broken at the crushed areas.

 

Super looking sword :jeal0001:

 

RD

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teufelhunde.ret
Recently picked up a nice early model 1859 USMC NCO sword. Appears to be a German made blade and imported by Horstmann. Some photos may not be the best. More photos to follow.

usmc1.jpg

Yours is a post 1872 contract production Noncommissioned Officer's Sword (there are no SNCO swords). Sword production prior to this date by Horstmann, Bush & Bent and Ames all had plain non-decorated blades (these companys won contracts to produce the NCO sword). Horstmann and sons of Philadelphia lasted survived until 1893 at which time it became known as William H. Horstmann Co.

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Definitely an interesting subject with lots of conflicting reference. I have read where officers were alowed to where this same sword for a short period: where higher ranked nco's had an engraved blade and lower ranks didn't: where engraved blades started in 1875 and yet another source debates that as knowing of one with an engraved blade belonging to a sgt. who was killed in an accident by a horse/wagon in 1869. But no matter who,where or when these swords are spectacular to look at! I was fortunate to find an early one in nice condition.

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teufelhunde.ret
...I have read where officers were allowed to where this same sword for a short period:

This more myth & legend than fact. Actually Officers switched to the Army Model 1850 (a very close copy of the French Officers sword), in 1859. This change was not widely accepted and period pic's show both in use beyond the Civil War. Hence, the myth that Officers used Enlisted swords (untrained eye looking at a period pic), as their appearance is remarkably similar. The Mameluke came back for good in 1875.

 

... where higher ranked NCO's had an engraved blade and lower ranks didn't: where engraved blades started in 1875 and yet another source debates that as knowing of one with an engraved blade belonging to a Sgt. who was killed in an accident by a horse/wagon in 1869.

 

Engraving of the scabbard mounts, pommel and middle suspension band by Officers are documented as early as 1859, which is the only was to ID a sword to a Marine. Since an Officer was required to purchase his own, it only logical engraving would be done. Enlisted swords were issued as Quartermaster property. With as little pay these Marines rec'd, I am dubious of claims that many enlisted Marines buying their own sword at this point in time... but not outside the realm of possibility. The numbered example shown above is a Quartermasters example, likely done when the contracted sword and scabbard items were rec'd in Philadelphia.

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This more myth & legend than fact. Actually Officers switched to the Army Model 1850 (a very close copy of the French Officers sword), in 1859. This change was not widely accepted and period pic's show both in use beyond the Civil War. Hence, the myth that Officers used Enlisted swords (untrained eye looking at a period pic), as their appearance is remarkably similar. The Mameluke came back for good in 1875.

Engraving of the scabbard mounts, pommel and middle suspension band by Officers are documented as early as 1859, which is the only was to ID a sword to a Marine. Since an Officer was required to purchase his own, it only logical engraving would be done. Enlisted swords were issued as Quartermaster property. With as little pay these Marines rec'd, I am dubious of claims that many enlisted Marines buying their own sword at this point in time... but not outside the realm of possibility. The numbered example shown above is a Quartermasters example, likely done when the contracted sword and scabbard items were rec'd in Philadelphia.

 

 

I am curious, if an enlisted marine had a numbered quartermaster sword did he have to turn this back in after his time of service? Thanks.

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teufelhunde.ret
I am curious, if an enlisted marine had a numbered quartermaster sword did he have to turn this back in after his time of service? Thanks.

It would have been turned in as soon as he transfered from the Regiment (or Battalion), anything lost while under his control, he would have been required to replace or paid for it.

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Still-A-Marine
Yours is a post 1872 contract production Noncommissioned Officer's Sword (there are no SNCO swords). Sword production prior to this date by Horstmann, Bush & Bent and Ames all had plain non-decorated blades (these companys won contracts to produce the NCO sword). Horstmann and sons of Philadelphia lasted survived until 1893 at which time it became known as William H. Horstmann Co.

 

So were the M1840 swords used by Marines only used by musicians? Or did the NCOs also use the M1840 sword?

 

My understanding is the M1840 was used by Marine NCOs and musicians and that the M1850 was for Marine officers and SNCOs. The M1850 officers sword has ring mounts and a long blade. The SNCO sword is shorter to allow for the scabbard with the frog mount. I remember reading (can't remember were) all SNCO M1850 swords purchased by the USMC have numbers stamped in the guard.

 

I've also read in Historic American Swords by Howard R. Crouch that "the 1959 Regulations very plainly show that the officers' sword was the standard US Army Foot Officers' sword without Marine Corps markings on the blade, and a scabbard with carrying rings." He also said the the Marine Corps NCO sword circa 1861 - 1870 was "essentially the Army Model 1850 Foot Officers' sword." He shows a picture of one with the USMC etched on the blade.

 

Just as clear as mud. But still fun to research and collect. Bill

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teufelhunde.ret
So were the M1840 swords used by Marines only used by musicians? Or did the NCOs also use the M1840 sword?

Let's take these one at a time. The earliest know examples of enlisted "Noncommissioned Officers Sword" (not SNCO - never has been a SNCO sword) are from the 1820's. These and the Adult Musician and Boys Musician, were all of different size. And all were made by "Widmann" until 1848, at which time Horstmann began to supply until 1859.

 

The issue is the regulation which stated "Same as the US Infantry" (note; no date or model was spec'd). Obviously these were not identical - nor even similar. The USMC version's of these thre swords were of superior design, casting, detail and hand finishing by both makers.

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teufelhunde.ret
My understanding is the M1840 was used by Marine NCOs and musicians and that the M1850 was for Marine officers and SNCOs. The M1850 officers sword has ring mounts and a long blade. The SNCO sword is shorter to allow for the scabbard with the frog mount. I remember reading (can't remember were) all SNCO M1850 swords purchased by the USMC have numbers stamped in the guard.

As noted in previous post, there are no references to a specific Model of Army Sword in any of the promulgated uniform reg's of the period. Thus attempting to ID a USMC sword of the period to a specific model of Army sword of the period is an exercise in futility.

 

One need only to ID the maker of the sword, to ID the period of its usage. Different numbers are found on different parts of a are for parts inventory purposes, more often than not initials are attributable to the sword maker / inspector - not owner. All the makers are known and in great context the actual number of NCO swords ordered by the Quartermaster each year is know as well. IE with the 1859 uniform changes Horstmann was awarded the first contract and delivered 24 swords. Ames got a second in 1859, followed by another Horstmann in 1861 and all subsequent contracts were landed by Bent & Bush until 1872 when "decorated blades" came into effect with new uniform reg's.

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Still-A-Marine
As noted in previous post, there are no references to a specific Model of Army Sword in any of the promulgated uniform reg's of the period. Thus attempting to ID a USMC sword of the period to a specific model of Army sword of the period is an exercise in futility.

 

One need only to ID the maker of the sword, to ID the period of its usage. Different numbers are found on different parts of a are for parts inventory purposes, more often than not initials are attributable to the sword maker / inspector - not owner. All the makers are known and in great context the actual number of NCO swords ordered by the Quartermaster each year is know as well. IE with the 1859 uniform changes Horstmann was awarded the first contract and delivered 24 swords. Ames got a second in 1859, followed by another Horstmann in 1861 and all subsequent contracts were landed by Bent & Bush until 1872 when "decorated blades" came into effect with new uniform reg's.

 

Very interesting. So the M1840 NCO swords with Marine etchings and Horstmann Phila. marks - when would they have been made? Bill

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  • 1 year later...
Let's take these one at a time. The earliest know examples of enlisted "Noncommissioned Officers Sword" (not SNCO - never has been a SNCO sword) are from the 1820's. These and the Adult Musician and Boys Musician, were all of different size. And all were made by "Widmann" until 1848, at which time Horstmann began to supply until 1859.

 

The issue is the regulation which stated "Same as the US Infantry" (note; no date or model was spec'd). Obviously these were not identical - nor even similar. The USMC version's of these thre swords were of superior design, casting, detail and hand finishing by both makers.

 

 

November 22, 2011

Sir, I hope you can help me. I have been trying to identify a Civil War era sword I have. (If you send me your email address I can email you pictures direct - not sure how to post them here)

Description details:

 

•There is no maker’s stamping on the ricasso, although A.D.K. is stamped on the flat of the knuckle guard bow, and G.W.C. is stamped on the scabbard drag. I understand that A. D. King and G.W. Chapin were Government inspectors at Ames Sword Co. during the Civil War.

 

•The other side of the ricasso is stamped “U.S.” over part of an "A " followed by part of a "D", over the numeral "2" toward the right side. (poor strikes for U.S. / A.D.K. / 1862 ??)

 

•There are small numbers "18" stamped on the pommel and on the base of the grip, both on the side where the knuckle bow attaches.

 

•The reduced clamshell guard side looks like it was cast that way at the factory, and not a post-factory cut-off.

 

•There is evidence of gilding on the grip. pommel and guard; the blade is 32" long. with no etching or inscription.

 

In trying to ID this sword, I did contact the current Ames Sword Company hoping that they may have inherited some records from the Civil War era. I received the following response from Keith V. Bailey, a V.P. at Ames:

 

“Thanks for your inquiry. The sword you describe and as shown in your photos is, I believe, a Marine NCO sword. It is not common. It is the same pattern as the Army NCO, except that it has the clamshell on the front of the guard only. I do not know of any written regulation describing this except: “per pattern on file”.

 

Examples are few, but they do exist and this is the general consensus of what this sword actually is.

 

The initials GWC are those of another government inspector. I cannot tell you the meaning of the “18” stamping.

 

I hope this helps. I have never seen one for sale, so cannot begin to estimate value. They are rare.”

 

I obtained a copy of “Collectors’ Guide to Ames U.S. Contract Military Edged Weapons” (1984), and can find no mention of an Ames Marine NCO sword. As my sword bears government inspectors marks, it must have been produced for a government contract, (or was possibly a sample prototype submitted for evaluation with a contract bid??), rather than a private sale or individual custom order..

 

Would you have any ideas or can confirm what this sword actually is? Or know of any reference works that have information on Ames NCO Marine sword contracts in the early 1860's? Any help you can provide would be most appreciated.

 

Regards,

Jim Hutton

[email protected]

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  • 3 years later...

I have just acquired an Ames "Marine" sword like the one Jim posted above, but mine is dated 1864. I believe these may be M1859 USMC musician's swords, but I'm not sure for two reasons. First the 1859 marine uniform regulations specified the musician sword would have no rear counterguard and I have seen examples with no rear counterguard whatsoever; these swords still have a vestigial counterguard. Second, Ames contract for these swords was in 1860. After 1861, Bent and Bush had the contract; and these swords are dated 1862 and 1864 respectively. Despite these late dates, they may still be USMC swords. There are no known musician swords with a Bent and Bush name or logo. It is believed they subcontracted the production out to other makers such as Roby; perhaps this sword is one subcontracted out to Ames. Another thing that makes me suspect these are marine swords is that Jim's example has number struck on the pommel and knuckle guard. This is something I have frequently seen on other USMC swords. What do you other members think?

 

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