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Medic, 101st Airborne, 501st PIR, NCO Marked Helmet


Bugme
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not to ruffle any feathers either, but I just wanted to share my opinion on the helmet. I am thinking along the same lines as Moonlight gecko on this one. The paint looks very aged and worn a little too "distressed" i have seen and handled marked helmets used as cooking pots in the past and the wear is not consistant with them. The helmet has a more baked than burned look to it which makes me wonder as one method I heard employed by fakers is baking helmets to add age to the paint.

 

This added to the the fact it is a 101st marked medic helmet, an unusual practice in the first place and a common and profitable unit to fake make me wonder a bit.

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If I may add my 2c, I believe a large portion of the lid's patina has been affected by the addition of that lacquer-type of sealant finish. It looks as if it has been on there for many many years and after reacting with storage techniques and just purely over time, has taken on a different look than what we're partial to seeing a great deal of the time. I do believe, if the helmet had NOT been coated in this lacquer, what we would be seeing today would be alot closer to the 'norm' patina wise, although with a lot more degradation to the finish from natural wear over time. If you take a look into a few 'old school' collections when folks always tended to seal their helmets with clears and lacquers, German helmets especially - many of the finishes at this point in time will look quite similar, and have that own individual look to them.

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not to ruffle any feathers either, but I just wanted to share my opinion on the helmet. I am thinking along the same lines as Moonlight gecko on this one. The paint looks very aged and worn a little too "distressed" i have seen and handled marked helmets used as cooking pots in the past and the wear is not consistant with them. The helmet has a more baked than burned look to it which makes me wonder as one method I heard employed by fakers is baking helmets to add age to the paint.

 

This added to the the fact it is a 101st marked medic helmet, an unusual practice in the first place and a common and profitable unit to fake make me wonder a bit.

I've collected helmets for nearly 35 years starting first with Third Reich helmets and then moving onto U.S. I have literally held 1000's of helmets in my hands over those years and am very familiar with European faking & aging techniques. First let me say that, there is no such thing as consistent wear on a helmet that was used for cooking or heating water. These pots may have been used with different heat levels found in "fueled heat"(kerosene, gas etc) or with "wood heat". They may have been used only once for this purpose or multiple times for heating purposes. The heat may have been high(pot right in the fire) or low(pot suspended over the fire). All of these produce a different look in heating patterns, burn off and wear.

 

So, Let me state again what I said before and add to that:

"Any helmet of this type and rarity should be gone over thoroughly to eliminate any speculation and question. The heavy base metals found in WWII paint have been confirmed on this helmet. It has also been inspected by several other well known and might I add: experienced collectors. This helmet was used on a campfire which accounts for the heavy burned look and lack of paint on the dome. It also appears to have spent a lot of time in the elements as evidenced by the heavy patina which is hard to see since this helmet has been shellacked(see more below). I have spent weeks going over this helmet under magnification looking for the slightest hint of telltale artificial aging methods, none of which were found.

 

Blake mentioned this in his reply also but, let me add what I previously said about shellacking which, incidentally, completely changes the look of any helmet as it ages:

The previous collector/owner of this helmet did something that WWI vets did to their decorated parade helmets and what TR collectors did to their helmets up until the early 80's in an attempt to preserve them... he shellacked it. While we've since learned that this is something we 'should not' be doing to preserve these helmets, I believe that this is one case where it may have actually helped to hold the very fragile paint to this helmet.

 

Continuing with what shellac does I said:

Unfortunately, seeing that shellac is a natural compound, it does break down with decades of age causing discoloration, cracking, crazing, peeling and even powdering of the finish. All of the which can be found happening on this shellacked medic helmet.

 

Finally, you mentioned that you 'heard' of helmets being baked. I have 'seen' helmets faked with "oven baking", this is not what they look like when done by this method.

 

I fully understand that the mere rarity of this helmet immediately causes it be questioned. The same is the case with rare and sought after TR helmets such as Fallschirmjäger, SS, RAD, Zimmerit & Normandy Camouflage, Reichsheer etc. Yet, previously unseen legitimate originals of these are still popping up out of old collections and estates. Let me say it again with emphasis: I am 100% confident that this is a legitimate 501st Medical helmet.

 

I hope this adequately answers or addresses your concerns.

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Hello sir

 

I have been watching this post with great interest. I would not class myself as a helmet collector but more interested in us airborne so as a consequence I happen to own a few airborne marked WWII helmets.

 

I do not have a question as to the authenticity but wanted to throw a thought in the air regarding the time frame for the helmet. The reason I say this is for the following points...

 

1) it is very unusual to see a medic marked 101st airborne helmet in Normandy and holland.

 

2) almost every 501st stencil again in normandy and holland is not actually a diamond shape but actually a turned square...

 

Again no critasism but just something for debate, could it be a late war/ post war helmet ?

 

Regards Bruce

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almost every 501st stencil again in normandy and holland is not actually a diamond shape but actually a turned square...

Really?

501st_Airborne_Medic_Enlg..JPG

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Listen guys, I didn't post this so I could have a running debate nor to have to prove over and over that my helmet is legitimate. As I said before and say once again: I am aware of the rarity of this helmet. I know it's human nature to doubt the rare one's like this, I'm guilty of doing the same thing. However, I'm absolutely sure it's legit and I'm that one who has to live with it and for me that's good enough. So, I will not be debating this helmet from this point on. Thanks for your understanding. :)

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just-a-good-ole-boy
Listen guys, I didn't post this so I could have a running debate nor to have to prove over and over that my helmet is legitimate. As I said before and say once again: I am aware of the rarity of this helmet. I know it's human nature to doubt the rare one's like this, I'm guilty of doing the same thing. However, I'm absolutely sure it's legit and I'm that one who has to live with it and for me that's good enough. So, I will not be debating this helmet from this point on. Thanks for your understanding. :)

 

Well put :thumbsup:

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  • 2 weeks later...
Very nice helmet, what do you mean it was used on a campfire?

Many soldiers used their helmets as cooking pots over fires.

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Many soldiers used their helmets as cooking pots over fires.

 

I know a surgeon who jumped with the 508th at Normandy.He not only used his helmet as a wash basin but a stool to sit on,and to heat water and steralize instruments.Seems to me a common task for a medic to heat water to steralize tools and or wash and steralize bandages if needed.

 

RD

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Many soldiers used their helmets as cooking pots over fires.

Oh duh, I was thinking someone used it post war at a camp fire.

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Is there any provenance at all with this helmet, specifically regarding the campfire, which seems to be more of a story attached to the helmet by the seller than anything else. It seems to me that a campfire is a possibility, and probably the easiest story for us to accept because it attributed the damage to it's wartime use. A housefire is another possibility, but that would mean the fire damage is likely postwar which is ok because most helmets are damaged primarily by their poor postwar storage and not their combat use. The other possibility, and by far the least likeable of all of them is that the fire damage is a result of a helmet faker "aging" his work. It seems all but one member who have been vocal in this thread seem to think this is a "one looker". For me I will hesitate to say with certainty that the helmet is not authentic, but "one looker" isn't the word I would use to describe any unprovenanced airborne helmet at this point. The look of the helmet and the aging of the insignia are also completely different from any of the hundreds of original marked helmets I've handled. Again, this is not to say just because the wear is unique it must be fake. Anyway, as the other member said, I don't mean to ruffle any feathers. After all, none of us will ever know for certain whether our unprovenanced marked helmets are truly original of not.

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Is there any provenance at all with this helmet, specifically regarding the campfire, which seems to be more of a story attached to the helmet by the seller than anything else. It seems to me that a campfire is a possibility, and probably the easiest story for us to accept because it attributed the damage to it's wartime use. A housefire is another possibility, but that would mean the fire damage is likely postwar which is ok because most helmets are damaged primarily by their poor postwar storage and not their combat use. The other possibility, and by far the least likeable of all of them is that the fire damage is a result of a helmet faker "aging" his work. It seems all but one member who have been vocal in this thread seem to think this is a "one looker". For me I will hesitate to say with certainty that the helmet is not authentic, but "one looker" isn't the word I would use to describe any unprovenanced airborne helmet at this point. The look of the helmet and the aging of the insignia are also completely different from any of the hundreds of original marked helmets I've handled. Again, this is not to say just because the wear is unique it must be fake. Anyway, as the other member said, I don't mean to ruffle any feathers. After all, none of us will ever know for certain whether our unprovenanced marked helmets are truly original of not.

Let me state for the last time. I've done ALL... repeat, ALL of the tests available to verify that this helmet is legit. I doubt most collectors are a thorough as I am with their collections. This helmet is in my hands, I spend hours on every helmet going over it with a fine tooth comb and doing the chemical tests. I originally posted this to share with the collecting community a rare one from my collection. But, I guess 35 years of helmet collecting experience, having handled several thousand helmets through my collecting, buying and selling, and authenticating helmets for other collectors, studying and researching isn't good enough for some of the authorities here who can tell more from a picture than I can from having it in hand. Obviously some of you here have many more years of experience than I do so, I bow to your extensive expertise!(sarcasm intended)

 

I'm sorry, but to repeat a phrase that seems to be all the rage on this thread: my feathers are finally ruffled! :disgust:

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i know we're here to learn but to keep throwing in doubts about an item after all has been done to prove its originality is a bit out of order & begs the question in that case can anything be proven original unless gotten directly form the vet him self with photos of said hand over of the item ????

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Personally, I would trust Bugme until my dieing breath when it comes to helmets. I know when I get my first medic helmet :nerv0003: , Bugme will be the first person I will go to to authenticate it. :thumbsup:

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I certainly didn't mean to upset you Scott and I really hope you know that. As a matter of respect I will refrain from discussing this further. But please, in my defense, understand that no disrespect was intended by my comment. I have had forum members cast doubt on highly provenanced and documented helmets in my collection. I have also seen highly detailed analyses be discussed regarding other helmets. While I consider myself a highly experienced and learned helmet collector, I am admittedly not as experienced a forum member as you and others as evidenced by my relatively low number of posts. That being said, I truly did not think it was out of place to question the authencity of any helmet on the forum but evidently I was wrong in my assumption. I promise not to discuss this any further and hope you can accept my apology for offending you. Mark

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...That being said, I truly did not think it was out of place to question the authenticity of any helmet on the forum but evidently I was wrong in my assumption. I promise not to discuss this any further and hope you can accept my apology for offending you. Mark

Mark, I guess you need to understand my position. I realized there would be questions on something as rare as this helmet. And I do encourage open discussion on any helmet, including mine, on this forum. So, you are not wrong in your assumption. However, I had explained in detail everything that helped me conclude that this helmet was indeed authentic in post: 37, 41, 44, 54, & 56. I thought I had covered everything without taking any kind of real offense outside of becoming slightly miffed, even after having to restate everything several times without so much as a single answer of rebuttal from those who questioned it in the first place. However, when the same question of authenticity was brought up 'again' without adding anything new to the conversation, admittedly, I got offended. My apologies also for the sarcasm I directed to you in my earlier response, it was uncalled for.

 

...I am admittedly not as experienced a forum member as you and others as evidenced by my relatively low number of posts.

For the record, a forum members post count means absolutely nothing. A forum member can make meaningless posts a 1000+ times without adding one ounce of help to anyone on the forum. On the other hand a forum member can post less than 50 times and be much more experienced and knowledgeable than anyone else here on the forum while providing posts that have substance. Knowledge does not come with age or the number of posts on a forum, it comes from... experience. That experience can take only a few short years for those who want to learn or may never come in an entire lifetime for those who choose not to learn. ;)

 

Now, on to my helmet: There is no provenance and there was no story from the seller, I was speaking simply from my own observations of the helmet. If a non-provenanced helmet can never be proven to be authentic, then I may as well discontinue collecting helmets since I'm then just wasting my money on potential fakes... as are many other collectors on this forum including yourself. However, I do believe that with close observation, comparison, magnification, chemical analysis, knowledge of period paints, painting techniques, period photographs, personal experience, research, understanding how fakes are made and the shared experience of other helmet collectors we can, indeed, authenticate helmets with relative authority.

 

If we follow the line of thinking that only provenanced helmets are the real deal, then we can then conclude that less than 1/10th of 1% of Third Reich helmets are legit since there is very little provenance available for these. Even if they're named you can't go far researching these since most TR records were destroyed. Just food for thought.

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Thanks for understanding Scott. I suppose the most relavent issue here is with the availability of antique and other lead based paints the most that can be proven is that period paints were used and not that they were applied during wartime. This is not regarding your helmet specifically but just the idea of testing in general. Testing of paints can prove a helmet to be fake, but cannot prove with certainty that insignia are original. I know over the years there have been original GI paints from WWII most commonly vesicant and olive drab. You brought up an interesting question about collecting unprovenanced helmets. For me personally two things are of primary importance. First idea my gut instinct about the look and feel of the helmet based on my collecting experience. Next, and of equal importance is the context in which. The helmet was purchased. Your best bet is to get a helmet directly from the vet or his family but it is too uncommon to give a helmet collectors our fix. Another great context for a helmet to come out of is an estate sale hunter who sells all of their finds either at flea markets or eBay and never know much about what they have. Thrift shops and curbside trash is also nice but again quote uncommon based on my experience. The least desirable context for an unprovenanced helmet to come from is a helmet collector. There are many honest and knowledgable collectors out there who hve great collections but I'm sure we'd all trust a helmet more from a garage sale than we would from a collector. Also despite the vast amounts of great European collections, it's also home to a lot of fakers who have had years of experience faking german helmets and are now moving to where the money is, namely airborne, medic, and unit marked helmets. I am always wary of buying unprovenanced helmets from Europe but admittedly I do have two in my collection. They are both nice lids but I would be lying if I said they are certainly authentic, though based on the obscure units and poor condition I would guess they are original. The European collection that was recently purchased is not the best context in my view. At least three unit marked medic helmets came from the collection if I remember correctly. In my opinion the best way to judge the context of these purchases is to look at all the helmets together. I know you already did that many times and are certain of your purchase. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise I'm jus trying to explain my reasons for casting doubt in the first place. I think it would be unhealthy and rather frightening if any member of this forum posted a 101st helmet without there being any subsequent discussion about it. I've seen threads where photos were inverted and brightened and colors adjusted to prove various things about the wear patterns etc. So I think the responses in this thread are appropriate and evidence of a healthily functioning forum.

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Brian Dentino

Nice lid......will stay out of the debate on it as I am no helmet guy for sure....but sure looks nice from my keyboard. AB and a MEDIC... :w00t:

 

If enough doubt is there I will take it off your hands for......... :lol:

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  • 1 year later...
carbinephalen

I do believe this helmet needs to be bumped to the top. What a beautiful lid Bugme. I'm sure your collection is one of my dreams! Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:

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History Man

great helmet and i am not surprised it found its way into your collection :rolleyes:

 

again i take a tip of my hat to your collection. now bow before the helmet gods :lol:

 

 

Philip

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