When the Family comes calling.........

[doyler]

AH, glad I found this thread. A few months ago I picked up a very nice Korean war M1 with it's original liner from someone on craigslist, for only 40 dollars. After much acetone and q-tips, I was able to uncover 42nd ID decals on the liner. Inside the lid was written the name of the service member and service number. After brief research the Korean war project website, I came across a post from the daughter of the vet, asking anyone with information about her father's service in Korea or unit history. I responded to the post and told her I have her father's helmet, and even sent pictures. At no point did I make any claims that I wanted to sell the helmet to her, for reasons stated in previous posts here. Finally the daughter asks me if I would sell her the helmet, at which point I was unsure. Before I could respond, she emailed me back and said she had spoken to a "collector friend" who told her that Korean war M1's are worth basically nothing "lol", and implied that she wanted me to give it to her for free. After much, much thought and consideration, I told her that it was a cherished piece of my collection (it really is) and that I wouldn't sell it YET. I then assured her it was well taken care of and amongst other military items on display, and told her that I would keep in touch with her if I ever decide to sell it, and then asked her if she could give me any info that she did have on her father's service, as I am in it for the history of the item as much as having the item. She emailed me back sounding like a completely different person. She said she ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT give me her father's PERSONAL information, that I was being extremely fishy from the start, that she didn't trust me, and wanted me to "just name a price or just give me my father's helmet back". Now it's starting to sound like she sold the helmet, now wants it back. I didn't respond to her message. All in all it was a pretty upsetting situation but I truly do think I did the right thing, how about you guys? If you'd like to see the helmet, go to my profile and previous posts, it should be under "great Korean war M1".

 

As they say,No good deed goes un-noticed...........

Nice response from her.I would have told her a grand(for a price) after her little tirade,even sent her a picture of it.Love the way some people try and guilt you into returning an item that was on the open market for sale in the first place where anyone could have bought it.

[Jack's Son]

You ABSOLUTLY did the right thing!!

As you have read in this thread, several others have been struck by a seemingly honest request by a family member. More often then not, the family doesn't care, or they would rather have the item in a collectors hands for proper keeping. As yourself this question....."how would the vet want to be remembered"? My guess is that he would prefer to be in the company of other vets and people who care about their memory.

 

I'll NEVER make this mistake again!!

[ludwigh1980]

I have found that it is good policy never to track down family members for information especially if it something I paid a lot for. I sold a large collection of ephemera that belonged to a civil war vet and early Colorado pioneer. I purchased it from a picker who in turn purchased it from antiqueer that bought the stuff in the 1960's from the original family's estate sale. I sold the group to a ephemera dealer who sold some of it on ebay. He shortly there after got an e-mail from a family member who right of the bat, screamed theft.

and that he was contacting the police. Well, after digging up all of the reciepts and tracking the sales back to the original sale in the 1960's and presenting them to this family member, He seemed to remember such a sell "his aunts had" had taken place. His tune changed and he wanted to buy the collection. Once the price was mentioned, not a word was heard again. Sad that some-one threatened police envolvement to coerce a sale. If it was me and someone found a family member of mine military items I would pay premium for it, maybe even 2 or three times market price.

 

Terry

[bellasilva]

Thanks for the input! The only thing that troubled me was that yeah, it did belong to her father, these sorts of things should stay in the family, but I know for certain that I will honor and take care of it much better than she probably would. I have a 3 year old daughter who would rip the damn thing to shreds if she could reach it, but right now it's perched between a WWII Air Corps flight cap and a WWII artillery battalion field phone. I think he'd be happy!

[bellasilva]

I have found that it is good policy never to track down family members for information especially if it something I paid a lot for. I sold a large collection of ephemera that belonged to a civil war vet and early Colorado pioneer. I purchased it from a picker who in turn purchased it from antiqueer that bought the stuff in the 1960's from the original family's estate sale. I sold the group to a ephemera dealer who sold some of it on ebay. He shortly there after got an e-mail from a family member who right of the bat, screamed theft.

and that he was contacting the police. Well, after digging up all of the reciepts and tracking the sales back to the original sale in the 1960's and presenting them to this family member, He seemed to remember such a sell "his aunts had" had taken place. His tune changed and he wanted to buy the collection. Once the price was mentioned, not a word was heard again. Sad that some-one threatened police envolvement to coerce a sale. If it was me and someone found a family member of mine military items I would pay premium for it, maybe even 2 or three times market price.

 

Terry

 

Exactly. In my honest opinion, 40 dollars for an ID'd and honest Korean war used M1 is an absolute steal! And to think this lady offered LESS than that for this helmet worn by her FATHER. My dad was an infantryman in the Brazilian army in the late 70's. Most collectors wouldn't take a second glance at something worn by him, but I would give my right arm to have ANYTHING he used during his service.

[hirsca]

What about when the Veterans Organization comes calling? Last week I picked up a beautiful WW1 rim numbered USMC Good Conduct Medal with the original matching numbered box. Along with numerous other items was the Veteran's dog tag and----a serial numbered WW1 Cross of Military Service that was issued to him by The United Daughters of the Confederacy----a fact just confirmed to me yesterday by the UDC. It's obvious that the family had no use for it as it was bundled with many other items that were thrown in a box for sale. Now the UDC wants me to donate it back to them. Having the provenance with the grouping means a lot more to a serious collector than breaking up the group. Unfortunately, I have no lineage to a Confederate Veteran, so I think that I will try to find someone who does and will honor the gouping in a collection. Am I being reasonable? Thanks, Al.

[Dave]

Now the UDC wants me to donate it back to them.

 

Ha....that's funny. I'd tell them where they could stick it.

[bellasilva]

 

Ha....that's funny. I'd tell them where they could stick it.

 

Yep, pretty much. If that's the case then what about all the militaria on ebay...

[manayunkman]

I have returned many items over the years and have kept many items.

 

I had a West Point class ring that I posted on ebay many years ago.

 

It was engraved and I listed the man's name.

 

I got the piece from a man who found it at a Pawn shop near West Point.

 

I paid 400 for it.

 

I got an overwhelming flood of emails mostly stating that I should return this ring as the original owner was still alive.

 

He had lost it a Fort Belvoir some 30 years earlier.

 

It got at least 20 emails from W.P. graduates.

 

Well no one wanted to pay me the 400 so the auction rode to over 1500 and who bought the ring ?

 

A group of WP grads got together and bought it.

 

Why they didn't want to do the 400 I'll never know.

 

Many times I'll buy a group from a vet and within days I get a call from a family member who wants something back.

 

9 times out of 10 I have returned the item for what I bought it for.

 

Several times all I did was give a little more cash and kept the item.

 

And other times I just refused to give anything back.

 

It is a sensitive issue and one that I handle on a case to case basis.

[doyler]

What about when the Veterans Organization comes calling? Last week I picked up a beautiful WW1 rim numbered USMC Good Conduct Medal with the original matching numbered box. Along with numerous other items was the Veteran's dog tag and----a serial numbered WW1 Cross of Military Service that was issued to him by The United Daughters of the Confederacy----a fact just confirmed to me yesterday by the UDC. It's obvious that the family had no use for it as it was bundled with many other items that were thrown in a box for sale. Now the UDC wants me to donate it back to them. Having the provenance with the grouping means a lot more to a serious collector than breaking up the group. Unfortunately, I have no lineage to a Confederate Veteran, so I think that I will try to find someone who does and will honor the gouping in a collection. Am I being reasonable? Thanks, Al.

 

Al

 

You have no obligation to donate it back to them.They are an Organization,not family.I had a similiar situation.Went to an auction that had a purple heart.The auctioneer had contacted me about it personally and told me there was no family and to come to the auction.Auction day comes along and I go there.I had even knew the veteran and remebered he had been a long time area gunsmith.He had served in the 34th Division in Italy and even pre-war with them as a guard unit.There were various items to include his dog tags,riobbon bars,regimental DIs,religious tokens,CIB etc.The purple heart was cased but not engraved.There were two differnt lots of items and I was trying keep an eye on thing so I could keep it all together.Five minutes before the auction I saw the heart was gone.It had disappeared.I immediatley looked throught the table items..nothing.I went to the auctioneer.I told him it was gone.He got a funny look on his face and said that the sister -in -law pulled the medal and thought it should got to the DAV.WTH!!!!

This lady was 93 years old and I guess the only living relative at the vet had no children.She had come to this decision just minutes before the auction.I asked what the hell was the DAV going to do with it??Put it in some drawer or end up on the shelf in someones office??I was livid.The auctioneer said I could contact the lawyer for the estate as he was there.I had seen him earlier fingering the purple heart and almost tore the lid off the box as he didnt know how to open the box.I said(to the auctioneer) that if they wanted to donate the item why not to the local historical society in the county.The vet had been a life long resident and worked here all his life.I know he was active in the DAV as I had always made a point of buying a poppy from him on veterans day.He sold them all over for years.I didnt even bother going to talk to the lawyer for the estate as it was a waste of time.Im sure the medal just ended up in someones pocket or file cabinet or the lawyers desk and never to be seen again.I only would have like to seen it stay here in a local musum if it was to be donated.

 

So Al the item is way better off in your hands.

 

Best wishes

 

RON

[tom2001]

Now the UDC wants me to donate it back to them.

 

I suppose there's no harm in them asking for a donation, as long as they understand that the medals are now your personal property, and you can do with them as you wish. I've had a couple of museums ask me to donate things to their collections, and were perfectly civil when I declined. Of course, neither were willing to offer me fair market value for the medals!

[Mercenary25]

I collect original SF ODA team patches. When I first collected it, I decided to post it, just wanted to share my finds.

 

What happened, is the actual ODA member contacted me (he searched google by his ODA number and found my post), he was very upset because the ODA patches are extremely rare and small number was made, given to the ODA members who earned them. Asked me why I worn it when I didn't earn it. Wanted to know where I got it.

 

I told him that I never wear my collection and I don't steal valor. I explained to him that it is my collection. Told him that the OEF/OIF will be important history for next generation and that I have nothing but high respect for SF and all soldiers who served in those conflicts. And that I got the patch from source who has buddies in SF.

 

He sent back PM apologizing for jumped the conclusion. The SF community had to deal many posers and he is okay for me to have the patch.

[bellasilva]

I collect original SF ODA team patches. When I first collected it, I decided to post it, just wanted to share my finds.

 

What happened, is the actual ODA member contacted me (he searched google by his ODA number and found my post), he was very upset because the ODA patches are extremely rare and small number was made, given to the ODA members who earned them. Asked me why I worn it when I didn't earn it. Wanted to know where I got it.

 

I told him that I never wear my collection and I don't steal valor. I explained to him that it is my collection. Told him that the OEF/OIF will be important history for next generation and that I have nothing but high respect for SF and all soldiers who served in those conflicts. And that I got the patch from source who has buddies in SF.

 

He sent back PM apologizing for jumped the conclusion. The SF community had to deal many posers and he is okay for me to have the patch.

 

Nice ending to what could have been an upsetting situation.

[PvtTamura]

I have run into similar situations when doing living history with veterans in the past.

Just have to be polite, and explain why so they understand.

They have good reasons to be concerned.

 

I've even run into such situations at San Diego Comic Con...

[Nkomo]

I collect original SF ODA team patches. When I first collected it, I decided to post it, just wanted to share my finds.

 

What happened, is the actual ODA member contacted me (he searched google by his ODA number and found my post), he was very upset because the ODA patches are extremely rare and small number was made, given to the ODA members who earned them. Asked me why I worn it when I didn't earn it. Wanted to know where I got it.

 

I told him that I never wear my collection and I don't steal valor. I explained to him that it is my collection. Told him that the OEF/OIF will be important history for next generation and that I have nothing but high respect for SF and all soldiers who served in those conflicts. And that I got the patch from source who has buddies in SF.

 

He sent back PM apologizing for jumped the conclusion. The SF community had to deal many posers and he is okay for me to have the patch.

You handled that very well, Merc. Like bellasilva said, it could have ended up much differently if you hadn't handled it like you did.

[willysmb44]

I won't name names, but a pal of mine who has a large WW1 collection just got an e-mail a couple of weeks ago that made my blood boil. His collection had been spotlighted in the local paper over veteran's day. After that, he got an e-mail from some random person who said that their grandfather's stuff was stolen some time back, and they demanded an entire list of everything in my pal's collection, including names of everything that is named to the vet (which he has a lot of), so they could go through the list and 'pick out any items that have been stolen' from the family. Just when you think you've heard it all, huh?

My friend is an older guy and had never heard of anything like this and was a little scared. I called him and calmed him down, telling him it's a scam and he's better off ignoring them. He has a family member who's a lawyer if he needs any legal assistance, so he knows better than to cowtow to anyone, he was just checking if this was normal. I told him as the stuff gets more valuable, the more common it's gonna get.

I assume that other collectors have the same thing happen. Imagine, say, a baseball collector with a famous player's bat and the player's heirs come calling. It's easy to imagine, isn't it?

[CNY Militaria]

That is crazy! Not to mention there is absolutely no legal basis for a case.

[Sabrejet]

We all take a theoretical risk whenever we post named / ID'd items from our collections on the forum. If I posted a medal named to "Sergeant Joe Public", simply entering a Google search for said "Sergeant Joe Public" will lead anyone right to it. I'm speaking from first-hand experience here. There ain't no hidin' place on the net!

[doyler]

I won't name names, but a pal of mine who has a large WW1 collection just got an e-mail a couple of weeks ago that made my blood boil. His collection had been spotlighted in the local paper over veteran's day. After that, he got an e-mail from some random person who said that their grandfather's stuff was stolen some time back, and they demanded an entire list of everything in my pal's collection, including names of everything that is named to the vet (which he has a lot of), so they could go through the list and 'pick out any items that have been stolen' from the family. Just when you think you've heard it all, huh?

My friend is an older guy and had never heard of anything like this and was a little scared. I called him and calmed him down, telling him it's a scam and he's better off ignoring them. He has a family member who's a lawyer if he needs any legal assistance, so he knows better than to cowtow to anyone, he was just checking if this was normal. I told him as the stuff gets more valuable, the more common it's gonna get.

I assume that other collectors have the same thing happen. Imagine, say, a baseball collector with a famous player's bat and the player's heirs come calling. It's easy to imagine, isn't it?

 

Lee

 

Thats a good one.Seems people will pull anything these days.

 

In defense of your friend how does it work if the so called family member cries fowl(my granfathers stuff was stolen) and he pursues the issue.Is your friend in posession of stolen goods?Can he be forced to turn things over or be charged for having stolen property?? Or does it depend on the local laws or statute of limitations?? I would assume there should be or should have been a report filed by the falily if theft was an actual issue here and these people are just playing games and hope your friend returns what is legally his.

 

Just curious as I agree more of this is going to happnen.

[Jack's Son]

RD,

If there is NO police report on file, there is NO theft!! People can tell you any story they want, but if they have to proof to back it up, it's just a story!

 

PS......The police report will have to be dated PRIOR to the date the items in question showed up in collectors hands!

[tom2001]

A few points based on personal experience:

 

When I've been accused of having "stolen medals", I always ask for a police report and a copy of the stolen item inventory list. Needless to say, I've never gotten a copy of a police report yet!!

 

I always tell people that if they indeed have a copy of the report, I will be happy to return the stolen items to the proper law enforcement authority so they can return the medals to the proper owner.

 

I've returned a few medals to families, but never by force of threat.

[Sabrejet]

See post #31 here!

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/151715-impulse-buy-ebay-uniform-purchase/page__st__20

[doyler]

RD,

If there is NO police report on file, there is NO theft!! People can tell you any story they want, but if they have to proof to back it up, it's just a story!

 

PS......The police report will have to be dated PRIOR to the date the items in question showed up in collectors hands!

 

Thats what I was thinking but these wackos that come out of the wood work can get pretty demanding at times and come up with some wild claims.Im still of the school of possesion is nine tenths of the law....

[Nkomo]

I can only imagine that if your friend sent them a complete list of named uniforms/groupings in his collection, that the people who sent the email would "magically" be related to the most valuable of the items and would then demand them back. As you know know, a fifth cousin twice removed would obviously be the "rightful" owner.

[willysmb44]

I can only imagine that if your friend sent them a complete list of named uniforms/groupings in his collection, that the people who sent the email would "magically" be related to the most valuable of the items and would then demand them back.

That's exactly what I told him. He hasn't bought anything for his collection probably since the 1980s and was mostly buying from the vets themselves back when WW1 stuff wasn't at all tough to find.

He knows to just ignore them and call the family's attorney (who, he said, really gets along well with him and he's never asked for any favors for) if this goes any further. I'm just glad he asked someone instead of going along with it. This guy is really nice and doesn't deserve this kind of mind game. And before anyone asks as a side question, his future estate is well established and the stuff is already willed to some good folks who are also collectors. It'll all be going to good homes (not mine, but oh well) when he passes.