vietnam usaf survival knife sheath id

[ken90-94]

can you id a vietnam usaf survival knife sheath if it has no metal tip and the snaps are marked "rau f co prov ri" the knife itself is marked camillus 75. he said the sheath is a replacement sheath but belives it to be usgi. i just won the auction so don't have the knife yet. when did they go to the metal tip sheath?

[bayonetman]

There is an excellent update on the variations of the Jet Pilot's knife and scabbard changes on Frank Trzaska's website in his Knife Knotes 13 archive. For those who have an interest in this knife, the information is invaluable. It is down near the bottom, just go to the bottom and then scroll up about 3 pages. For that matter, read the whole thing as Frank always has great information found nowhere else.

 

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_knotes_13.htm

 

But for a quick answer, the short metal plate covering the tip of the sheath was adopted in late 1967, the full back plate protector in mid 1974.

[gunbarrel]

Excellent information on the dates, Bayonetman.

 

It didn't take the users long to figure out that a metal protector was needed on the tip of the sheath. Here are a couple of examples of sheaths metal-tipped by the users:

 

[gunbarrel]

By the way, although these knives were Jet Pilot Knives, they were highly desired by members of other branches of the service, who would buy, trade, or carry out midnight requisitions to get their hands one one. Here is a photo of an Infantry medic wearing one on his belt.

 

[gunbarrel]

And here is a photo of a jet pilot wearing one on his gear. This is Col. (later Brigadier General) Robin Olds, USAF.

 

[bayonetman]

I agree, these were very popular in Vietnam and used by all sorts of troops, by no means just pilots or aircrew. Many of the Vietnam vets that I have had contact with have agreed that this knife was common. The Knife, Combat (or USN Mark 2 or USMC 1219c2) was probably the most common knife but the Jet Pilot likely was a close second.

 

Soldiers bought them if they couldn't get them any other way - this one is private purchase by a Marine officer (although his serial number seems low to me). I am not sure if it is plated, or more likely stainless.

 

[SKIPH]

I can remember the Pilot Survival knives being sold at the old Smoke Bomb Hill book store on Ft Bragg in 1970 for $3.95, Camillus made. The Camillus MK2,s were $4.95. SKIP

[ken90-94]

i see every one calls these knifes "jet pilot knife", i all ways though these where called "air force survival knife" is air force survival knife just a made up civilan name for these, because thats what i've been calling em since the mid 80's guess should start calling em by their correct name.

[elyisum]

I like this style of knife , :thumbsup:

 

[bayonetman]

i see every one calls these knifes "jet pilot knife", i all ways though these where called "air force survival knife" is air force survival knife just a made up civilan name for these, because thats what i've been calling em since the mid 80's guess should start calling em by their correct name.

 

Jet Pilot Knife is the most common collector term for this style knife. There are several variations especially including the sheath variations. Makes a nice grouping for the collector.

 

I believe properly it is the Knife, Survival, Pilot's (with Sheath) MIL-K-8662

 

It is a fine knife, very versatile and rightly popular with military personnel.

[dkr02]

I just picked up a early-mid 60's camillius pilot's knife, and the guard is loose, apparently due to the handle shrinking. I have noticed that the older the knife, the more common the problem. Would it be OK soak the handle in neatsfoot oit to get it to swell back up? Comments welcome!

 

Rick

[Bob Hudson]

I just picked up a early-mid 60's camillius pilot's knife, and the guard is loose, apparently due to the handle shrinking. I have noticed that the older the knife, the more common the problem. Would it be OK soak the handle in neatsfoot oit to get it to swell back up? Comments welcome!

 

Rick

 

Offhand I don't recall ever seeing on the forum a ay to "unshrink" the leather rings. I'm not sure leather can do that.

 

You might want to hold off on that until someone with experience replies. I'm not sure it's age which causes that: I have had many WWII fighting knives where the the stacked leather was tight as could be, but newer ones that were loose. I suspect storage conditions impact it more than age.

[SKIPH]

hEY Gang! Just checked a Pilots knife I've had for 32 years. Back of the sheath says" Knife, Hunting, Sheath,Survival , Pilot's" MIL-K-8????, Camillus Cutlery Co. DSA-400-67-C-4989/TR501, March 1967. Pommel stamped with a date 3-67. Anyway, what month in 67" did they add the metal reinforcing to the sheath? Mine does not have one. THX SKIP

[gunbarrel]

Must have been later in '67. I have two and neither one came with the metal tip.

[bayonetman]

hEY Gang! Just checked a Pilots knife I've had for 32 years. Back of the sheath says" Knife, Hunting, Sheath,Survival , Pilot's" MIL-K-8????, Camillus Cutlery Co. DSA-400-67-C-4989/TR501, March 1967. Pommel stamped with a date 3-67. Anyway, what month in 67" did they add the metal reinforcing to the sheath? Mine does not have one. THX SKIP

 

The nomenclature did change a little from time to time, although I believe the MIL-K-8662 (with various letters denoting changes) stayed the same.

 

According to Frank's research (see the article that I referenced in Post 2 above), the change was part of MIL-K-8662d Amendment 1 adopted 1 November 1967. However, he states in another one of his earlier Knife Knotes that in his experience the change did not actually take place at Camillus until somewhere in 1969, possibly because they had sufficient sheathes on hand to use up until that time.

 

Here is the drawing of the new tip as shown in the article.

 

[dkr02]

Soaked the survival knife handle in Neatsfoot oil, and it tightened up a little, but still loose. Any recommendations?

 

Rick

[PSKlister]

Soaked the survival knife handle in Neatsfoot oil, and it tightened up a little, but still loose. Any recommendations?

 

Rick

These knives were designed to use the pommel as a hammering tool. Forming a crude aluminum wok in the sand for cooking, or hammering tent stakes, and so on. When you hold the knife tightly by the leather handle and pound with it, it drives the washers toward the pommel, leaving the guard loose. I've corrected this problem on several knives by reversing the action. Holding the knife tightly by the handle, stick it repeatedly into a hardwood block, trying not to break the tip. This drives the washers back toward the guard, tightening it back up. THEN oil it. Neatsfoot, or any leather treating oil, like Mink Oil, etc. Moisture is the enemy of leather; causes Jungle rot and shrinkage. The original screw pommels on the Marble's and Camillus were intended to prevent this problem; keeping the leather washers tight kept out moisture and prevented that annoying "hilt rattle." A good quality leather oil will help keep the leather from shrinking, and help to "swell" dry leather back up. Think of it like your boots! Give the handle as many coats of oil as it needs. I use an artist's paint brush to apply oil. Wait until the oil soaks into the leather; if it still looks or feels dry, give it another coat. I, personally, finish off a handle with Kiwi neutral polish and a shoeshine rag, with the blade in a vise. Hope this helps.

[elbertson]

I don't think I've ever owned or seen too many JPKs that didn't have guard looseness to some degree or another. It's just the nature of the beast and I don't consider it a defect or much cause for concern.

While there is nothing wrong with treating the leather handle washers, just be aware that the majority of waterproofing compounds on the market will actually increase the deterioration of leather over the long haul by causing it to break down prematurely. While this isn't much of an issue with items such as boots, that wear out in a few years and will be discarded, it's not the best thing for knives you might want around a few decades. Most people who put them on their boots are basically concerned about waterproofness and don't expect or plan on having their footwear for decades, and so it's not an issue so much or something most people would notice.

Most of the products I've seen mention in this thread will cause this breakdown over time. I might and have used them on boots and even user knife handles that I'm not concerned about ever becoming collector items. I would not use them on collector knife handles or sheaths, or leather jackets for that matter. I have looked into this for the last ten years, and now use Pecard's Antique Leather Dressing...it's made for this sort of application and is used by museum curators. I recommend it only because I'd hate to see leather collectibles disappear due to short term preservation techniques. I don't sell the stuff or profit from it it any way, just to let you know.

[PSKlister]

Just a note, as the subject seems to come up often. The PSK sheaths are stamped with their date of manufacture, as are the pommel-dated knives. The date on the sheath and the date on the knife should never be expected to match. It would be a rare coincidence! As proof, I have sheaths with dates when it is known that no kives were made.

[PSKlister]

Elbertson, thanks for the input. Yes, I agree that what I recommended should NOT be used on any collectables! The info was posted for "users," who are generally the ones who complain about loose guards. Collectors are a different breed. Some of my information was provided by guys who worked air base security. These "strack and squared" guys could not tolerate a loose pommel because it might 'rattle' at the wrong time. They preferred to carry the sawback Pilot's knife, and generally dyed the sheath and handle black. If the pommel was gray, they blacked it.

[DSchlagan]

As I have a couple of "loose-guard" JPK's in my trust; that, and the notion of proper leather care/preservation, got me on the hunt...

 

Good discussion on this "Preservation" thread (from a Google loop-back :thumbsup: ); be sure to read this posting for 'another' point of view.

 

Also, fairly exhaustive coverage on this page.

 

Based on previous experience and the research that I have waded through, I would be inclined to believe that 100% pure lanolin might just be the best treatment that one could be using.

[elbertson]

Actually, the first PSK knife I owned (and still have) was one I carried when I was in the army years ago. If I remember correctly, it's guard was a little loose when I first got it, and it was "new". I think the guard would have to be very loose to ever rattle to the point of being heard, and while I know it was never a concern with me (since I couldn't hear it) I can see it being a concern for some. I've noticed this thing in the last 20 years or so about COs apparently wanting everything black that's carried on webgear...I don't really get it. When I was in, I guess the concensus was that it was issued tan (and soon turned a nice medium brown) and actually blended better against OD than black did, so it was best left that way. I know the black holster on my web belt stood out a lot more than my knife sheath. I did blacken the light gray paint on the end of the pommel, however. On later production knives they switched to black because the gray was too contrasting. I always thought the myth that the pommel paint was luminescent was amusing and must have been dreamed up by someone that never observed one in the dark. Maybe the same guy going around telling people that their M-16s were made by Mattel....

[elbertson]

As I have a couple of "loose-guard" JPK's in my trust; that, and the notion of proper leather care/preservation, got me on the hunt...

 

Good discussion on this "Preservation" thread (from a Google loop-back :thumbsup: ); be sure to read this posting for 'another' point of view.

 

Also, fairly exhaustive coverage on this page.

 

Based on previous experience and the research that I have waded through, I would be inclined to believe that 100% pure lanolin might just be the best treatment that one could be using.

 

I think the linen thread issue would apply if the thread is constantly saturated with almost anything. Some guys don't get the concept of light or adequate application, I believe, and treat leather like they're packing wheel bearings. I take Q-tips and clean off any excess that may linger where I don't want it.

In the end, people will use what they trust...one way or the other.

[macvsog]

I have at the moment around 7 Survival knives laying around. Some are directly sewed into the vests, such as the SRU-21/P and a OV-1 Mohawk vest and some in the Navy's SV-1 and 2's. All of the ones that are sewed in have the flexible tip. The others I have are with and without the riveted lower "protector" which was really placed there to provide the necessary guard for to use the butt to hammer with. The only one I am looking for now is the rare 6" blade model which came out during the 1950's - 1960's (around the mid 60's). All of the "REAL DEALS" will have some kind of wording with the NSN back then. If It is barely readable, that is OK too as long as you have a date around the bottom of the "Hammer Portion. I have one that has 2-69. I use that one for my MACVSOG items as they were carried/preferred while doing things "Across The Fence".

 

I am not aware of any serial numbers, because my Air Force knives do not have any. All the ones fro Vietnam I have ever had, had no serial numbers either, so I am unaware of any such beast ever being released? We all should know that the top edge of the blade is serrated and not meant to be cutting down trees, however it can assist with small branches and at a slight angle off of center. Mostly this edge was meant for getting out of plexiglass canopy's and bubbles around the Helicopters used back then. Then you have the very lite hammer pommel. Used for some extremely light hammering. The grip was made out of leather for endurance under stress and it will work when wet or covered in blood. Why did they not use a regular plastic grip as is on the bayonet? I really do not have the answer to this question. I have my own opinions on this, but nothing really based on proof.

 

Back to were we left off...

 

The blades false edge can be sharpened by the stone in the pocket. The pocket stones I have ever seen were black in color and really work well to sharpen the knife. First knives I seen that were very well made and included a very well made stone that does the job. IMHO, Considering when it first came out there was probably just enough Plastic/Bakelite to be around to make some of the things that were needed. Plus there were a lot of "Marbles" knives around back then and this is how Mr. Conrad "Ben" Baker, chief of CISO, used the handle of his 1929Marbles made handle (Leather washers) to be the one chosen for his SOG knives. As he explained "It held up to water, mud, snow, water, and high humidity. It was also adapt at self defense therefore Blood as well. Back then you could use water repellent such as Minks, or any other chemical used back then and up to 6 - 12 years ago when the knife was still in our inventory NSN/DSA.

 

Well, there you go. All the information that I know, and can dig up from my vests, books, and records.

 

Mark

MACVSOG "Living Historian"

[ffuries]

When I came into the AF in 1986 the survival knives were still in use, and all the ones we had were natural in color. When I was assigned to Germany, all our knife handles and sheaths were painted with black leather dye, we would have to wipe the blades down with alcohol or cutting fluid every time we inspected the survival vests or survival kits, then relube the blade with clear grease. I have a couple still around here, but a few years ago I had an ammo can full of them that I just gave away for free.

 

Plus our knives never had serial numbers on them, some units had local control numbers painted on them.

 

Mike

Aircrew Life Support

USAF Retired