Scenarios for public events?

[willysmb44]

There might be an event locally that could have some small public battles coming up this summer and I was thinking how cheesy those can be and I wanted to think on doing something new. I was wanting to haul up a radio and maps in the middle of the battle, close to the spectator line, calling in a fire mission with mortars over a 611, only to yell out, "Those %$#@s have diverted all our fires to another sector, they say we're on our own," true to what would have really happened then. I recall very well how to call in fire modern style from my active duty days (it was my job because we didn't have organic indirect or any FISTers dedicated to us) but am not too clear how they called in map grids back then. I know they didn't use a two alpha and eight digit grid, so how'd they do it then? Other than map coodrinates, I could do it just fine, as I have all the WW2 phonetic alphabet memorized as clear as the modern one.

But all that aside, has anyone ever done side "vingettes" like this at spectator battle events before? I've never seen it done other than policing up the wounded and POWs afterward.

[2ndID]

I'd love to have battles more detailed. Like a medic scene with the medic actually using sulfa, bandages, morphine, tourniquets, plasma, etc. during the battle next to the public. That's what I've been trying to do.

 

Michael

[FAAA]

I too would like clarity as to the correct procedure for calling in fire missions during WWII, like the author I can do it modern style but would love to base what we do as seen here in the film footage on correct War Time Fire Mission Orders.

 

http://faaa.forumotion.com/photos-and-vide...platoon-t22.htm

 

Regards

 

Lee

FAAA UK

[mpguy80/08]

Keeping in mind that maps weren't as sophistocated as they are today. Operational maps could range from crudely drawn to graphical representations of aerial photographs. These maps would be scaled and marked off in a one kilometer grid. This negated the use of the two letter grid zone designator (I'm not sure that map system existed at the time) and relied on sector designators. Within the sector designator, you would have a set number of grid squares, numbered in horizontal and vertical sequence. These grids could be turned into coordinates by reading right and up. For example, a target might be in sector 3, in grid square 54/60. The approximate location of the target would be judged, for example, 700 meters east of the 54 grid line, and 300 meters north of the 60 grid line. The grid location would be Sector 3, Grid 547603. A fire concentration would consist of a specific mode of fire by the firing battery, such as a search and traversing fire, walking fire, or creeping fire. Search and traverse is left and right, and adding or subtracting range. Walking fire is usually starting from a given point and walking the fire away from the battery, and creeping fire usually adjusting the fire in smaller increments than walking fire, Open sheaf or closed sheaf. Time on Target is what it sounds like. A call for fire might sound like this:

 

Callsigns:

Observing unit: Easy

Firing battery: Redleg

 

Redleg Redleg this is Easy six! Fire Mission! Sector three, Grid five-four-seven, six zero tree, Infantry in the open, fire concentration Charlie. Over!

 

The fire Direction center receives the call and plots the target on their boards (to which the battery is already plotted). The battery will already be laid in on the 0-3200 gun target line set as their principal direction of fire, with their sight referred to 2800, and aiming stakes (the red and white artillery stakes) set out at 2800 on their sights. This places the stakes at an angle to the left of the gun (the sight is usually on the left) and allows a field of fire about 400 or so mills to the left and right of the principal direction of fire. The firing command would be obtained by plotting the target on the map, and obtaining the direction in relation to the referred principal direction of fire (2800) The left and right deviation is referred to in mils, and the range is a combination of Elevation of the barrel and the amount of charge bags used to push the round to range. (in the 81mm mortars, Range divided by 5 equals the charge). A firing command might sound like this:

 

SECTION, H-E QUICK!!! THREE ROUNDS!!! DEFLECTION, TWO EIGHT SEVEN ONE, CHARGE SEVEN, ELEVATION, ONE ONE FIVE FOUR, CONCENTRATION CHARLIE, FIRE FOR EFFECT!!!

 

 

The Gunners would turn the dials on their sights to 2871, and the elevation to 1154 and adjust the gun back to the aiming stakes and level the gun while the ammo handlers are preparing the rounds. As each gun is prepared to fire, the rounds are loaded and figed until the three rounds are expended. at which time the guns will report ROUNDS COMPLETE!!!

 

I hope this is what you were looking for... if you have any more questions, dont hesitate to ask.

 

Wayne

[capa]

Great idea Lee and super reply Wayne!

[mpguy80/08]

Great idea Lee and super reply Wayne!

 

Thanks... twenty eight yeaars in the military calling for fire and six years of that in 81mm mortars puts in in the knowledgable catagory!!! lol

 

Wayne

[willysmb44]

Thanks... twenty eight yeaars in the military calling for fire and six years of that in 81mm mortars puts in in the knowledgable catagory!!! lol

 

Wayne

Where'd you learn the way they did it in the 40s?

[mpguy80/08]

Where'd you learn the way they did it in the 40s?

 

Other than the phonetic alphabet being different, the fire commands haven't really changed much. Maps are better now, and fire control measures are much upgraded with the advent of GPS and datalinks...

 

Depending on the sight used, the firing commands would differ. There were two masic methods of laying the gun. The Base post method, and the referred aming stake method.

 

The Base post method had the mortar laid in on a compass azimuth and an aiming stake placed in front of the gun at the given azimuth. A collimator would be used for firing deflections, i.e. LEFT FOUR ZERO!! based on deflection from the base post.

 

The referred aiming post method was used with the M34 sight which could be set to a given azimuth. The sight would be mounted to the gun set at 3200, and the squad leader would move forward to set in base plate stakes and then sight in the aiming stakes with a compass for the principal direction of fire. When the guns moved forward to occupy the position, the baseplate would go at the base plate stake, the gun would be assembled and then sighted on the aiming stake and levelled. the squadleader would then command REFER TWO EIGHT HUNDRED AND PLACE OUT AIMING STAKES! The gunner would turn the sight to 2800, level up and runners would place out the aiming stakes, with the long pole the farthest away from the gun. Once the far pole was placed and adjusted, the runner would emplace and adjust the near (short) pole. Any time the sight deflection was changed left or right, the far pole would be in the middle... hence the phrase, "Hey diddle diddle far pole in the middle." Small deflections could be made by turning the sight and traversing back to the aiming stakes... large deflections would require the tube to be shifted back to the stakes and relevelled before firing.

 

Firing short ranges where the target could be clearley seen by the crews were fired using Direct lay. You aimed the tube in the general direction of the target and estimated the range and adjusted till you hit the target.

 

References are FM 23-85, and FM 23-90

 

Hopes this makes things a big clearer...

 

Wayne

[FAAA]

Other than the phonetic alphabet being different, the fire commands haven't really changed much. Maps are better now, and fire control measures are much upgraded with the advent of GPS and datalinks...

 

Depending on the sight used, the firing commands would differ. There were two masic methods of laying the gun. The Base post method, and the referred aming stake method.

 

The Base post method had the mortar laid in on a compass azimuth and an aiming stake placed in front of the gun at the given azimuth. A collimator would be used for firing deflections, i.e. LEFT FOUR ZERO!! based on deflection from the base post.

 

The referred aiming post method was used with the M34 sight which could be set to a given azimuth. The sight would be mounted to the gun set at 3200, and the squad leader would move forward to set in base plate stakes and then sight in the aiming stakes with a compass for the principal direction of fire. When the guns moved forward to occupy the position, the baseplate would go at the base plate stake, the gun would be assembled and then sighted on the aiming stake and levelled. the squadleader would then command REFER TWO EIGHT HUNDRED AND PLACE OUT AIMING STAKES! The gunner would turn the sight to 2800, level up and runners would place out the aiming stakes, with the long pole the farthest away from the gun. Once the far pole was placed and adjusted, the runner would emplace and adjust the near (short) pole. Any time the sight deflection was changed left or right, the far pole would be in the middle... hence the phrase, "Hey diddle diddle far pole in the middle." Small deflections could be made by turning the sight and traversing back to the aiming stakes... large deflections would require the tube to be shifted back to the stakes and relevelled before firing.

 

Firing short ranges where the target could be clearley seen by the crews were fired using Direct lay. You aimed the tube in the general direction of the target and estimated the range and adjusted till you hit the target.

 

References are FM 23-85, and FM 23-90

 

Hopes this makes things a big clearer...

 

Wayne

 

 

Cheers Wayne

 

In WWII were we not using yards and not Metres.

 

As a gunner in the Royal Artillery I am familier with Arty Target Indication and the orders given to lay guns onto target, but its the Detail of the orders given in WWII to an 81MM Mortar Platoon when coming into action and not on pre- designated targets I need.

 

I understand the principles but dont know the orders given, I could bring a real tube onto target, but dont know the American terminology which is more important when putting over to the public a simulated fire mission.

 

At this time in displays we set up the tubes, a Fire Mission order is given and the crews take post. Orders from FOO To mortar base plates are mute of course and only orders used on the Mortar position to tubes are used.

 

Orders for ranging fire is given to each tube (up to 3 Blank Firing tubes we can deploy) each tube is ranged in with single HE rounds Firing bold and below targets (Bracketing) I.e. No 1 "Range 1000" One round HE Ranging, No 1 Fire

 

Traverse Left and Right is given (In Mills) ie Left Five Zero, Right Five Zero etc

 

Each Tube is brought on target

 

Once tubes on target

 

No's one, two and three, Range 900 left Three Zero, 2 rounds HE FFE--Number One Two and Three at my command ----Fire

 

Throughout simulated fire missions tubes are adjusted.

 

For effect Mortar Squad leaders write down Fire orders and repeats back the orders to the tube layer who also repeats the orders, Squad leader checks site

 

On rounds complete Squad leaders reports "rounds complete"

 

End of mission is given and Ammunition stats asked for.

 

The above is what we have been doing to date, but would like to improve on this if possible.

 

Regards

Lee

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mpguy80/08]

The manuals you need to look for are FM 23-85 dated 1942, and FM 23-90 Dated in the same time frame. Mortar commands for the 60mm and 81mm mortars are the same, as the concept is the same. In this case, size doesn't matter, the commands would be the same whether it be 60mm or up to 4.2 in (107mm). The commands I've seen in those manuals look the same as your example. Keep in mind that the FM 23-90, which was the 81mm mortar manual in WWII is now the mortar gunnery manual in modern day and includes all mortars from the 60mm M224, 81mm Mortar M29A1, and M252, 4.2 in Mortar M30, and the 120mm Mortar M120. The fire commands today ARE different than WWI, which is why you need the WWII Dated manuals. Try this link:

 

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/fm17-71-...rtar-squad.html

 

This is an excerpt from FM 17-71 that gives the Crew Drill commands for the Halftrack mounted mortars. This might give you a little more of what you are looking for.

 

Wayne

[FAAA]

The manuals you need to look for are FM 23-85 dated 1942, and FM 23-90 Dated in the same time frame. Mortar commands for the 60mm and 81mm mortars are the same, as the concept is the same. In this case, size doesn't matter, the commands would be the same whether it be 60mm or up to 4.2 in (107mm). The commands I've seen in those manuals look the same as your example. Keep in mind that the FM 23-90, which was the 81mm mortar manual in WWII is now the mortar gunnery manual in modern day and includes all mortars from the 60mm M224, 81mm Mortar M29A1, and M252, 4.2 in Mortar M30, and the 120mm Mortar M120. The fire commands today ARE different than WWI, which is why you need the WWII Dated manuals. Try this link:

 

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/fm17-71-...rtar-squad.html

 

This is an excerpt from FM 17-71 that gives the Crew Drill commands for the Halftrack mounted mortars. This might give you a little more of what you are looking for.

 

Wayne

 

 

Fantastic info

 

Willl look up sources for the FM 23-85 dated 1942, and FM 23-90.

 

Thanks again for the heads up Wayne.

 

Kind Regards

 

Lee

[mpguy80/08]

I have to admit, I'm a little biased towards mortar forkers... *grins* I did it for real from 1983 to 1989... Here is a picture of me on Mount Moffet, Adak Island, Alaska in June of 1987. The Mortar is the M29A1 81mm, and the round is M374A2 HE. We were doing Direct lay missions that day... Gawd I miss those days... As you can see, this picture pre-dates the issue of the PASGT Helmet to National Guard Units. I was with the 1st Bn, 147th Infantry Regt, 73rd Bde (SEP) Ohio National Guard at the time. The uniform consisted of BDUs, Field Jacket with liner, the first issue wet weather parka and trousers, M1 Helmet and ankle high mountain boots in black, similar to the brown mountains used in WWII. The Load carrying equipment is all LC-2, Y suspenders, two M16 30 rd Magazine pouches, two canteens with carriers and a jungle first aid kit.

 

Number two gun, one round HE Quick!!!! Charge four!!!! Deflection, two eight zero zero!!! Elevation, one one zero zero!!!!! Hang it!!!!!! FIRE!!!!!!

 

Wayne

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

I have to admit, I'm a little biased towards mortar forkers... *grins* I did it for real from 1983 to 1989... Here is a picture of me on Mount Moffet, Adak Island, Alaska in June of 1987. The Mortar is the M29A1 81mm, and the round is M374A2 HE. We were doing Direct lay missions that day... Gawd I miss those days... As you can see, this picture pre-dates the issue of the PASGT Helmet to National Guard Units. I was with the 1st Bn, 147th Infantry Regt, 73rd Bde (SEP) Ohio National Guard at the time. The uniform consisted of BDUs, Field Jacket with liner, the first issue wet weather parka and trousers, M1 Helmet and ankle high mountain boots in black, similar to the brown mountains used in WWII. The Load carrying equipment is all LC-2, Y suspenders, two M16 30 rd Magazine pouches, two canteens with carriers and a jungle first aid kit.

 

Number two gun, one round HE Quick!!!! Charge four!!!! Deflection, two eight zero zero!!! Elevation, one one zero zero!!!!! Hang it!!!!!! FIRE!!!!!!

 

Wayne

 

You're old!

 

Freaking 11 Charlies think they're smarter'n us 11B's........until someone has to carry the baseplate

 

Great pictures.

 

Rock

[willysmb44]

Thanks for the references, Wayne! :thumbsup: Like the other Lee, I too have plenty of modern call for fire experience but didn’t know the differences between modern and WW2 procedures.

Given the staggering number of WW2 FMs I have, I’m surprised I don’t have the ones you named.

[mpguy80/08]

You're old!

 

Freaking 11 Charlies think they're smarter'n us 11B's........until someone has to carry the baseplate

 

Great pictures.

 

Rock

 

Heh... We had trucks... we very rarely had to pack the mortars, and to be honest, it wasn't as bad as say... a Dragon... LOL Now the Four-Deuce... THAT was a cast iron bite in the butt... 746 lbs total... Tube, trunion, base plate and bridge... you didnt pack that anywhere but the back of the truck!!! 5650 range though... you could reach out and touch someone.

 

I tried to get my crews as much direct lay training as I could... its good to know the basics... After AIT it isn't messed with much... so troops tend to lose the skill... the crews loved being able to see steel on target. Most ranges are set up blind for the guns... very seldom do they get to see what they are firing at. I cross trained my entire platoon... My FDCs could gun, and my gun crews could FDC... even my radio op knew how to do everything... and I cross trained them with my FOs too.

 

Wayne

[FAAA]

We man pack the tubes on Events too.

 

 

Regards

 

LB

[FAAA]