What are these units?

[Abby K-9]

We are in the process of putting together a display regarding the POW camp that was at Pine Camp (Fort Drum) during World War II, housing German and Italian Prisoners of War. In one of our source documents, two units are mentioned - 2177th SCSU and 464th MPEG. Neither was easy to read (it's a photocopy of a photocopy of a typed page) so they may not be correct. These units were apparently assigned to guarding the POW camp.

 

Does anyone know whether the abbreviations are correct and what they stand for? (Or, if they are not correct, any ideas what they should be?)

Any information on these units?

Any information on POWs at Pine Camp?

[Abby K-9]

I believe 464th MPEG is the 464th Military Police Escort Guard, but don't have any information on them. Still puzzled by the SCSU acronym.

[Jeeper704]

Could it be the 2177th Service Command Unit?

 

See here.

 

Erwin

[Darktrooper]

You might want to look up the 414th MP Company. They were originally the 414th PWEG (Prisoner of War Escort Group) and they have some info on their website about what they did.

[Wailuna]

...two units are mentioned - 2177th SCSU and 464th MPEG. Neither was easy to read (it's a photocopy of a photocopy of a typed page) so they may not be correct...

Please confirm "2177th SCSU" as the first two digits appear to be reversed. Pine Camp was in Second Corps Area/Second Service Command's territory and its various four digit station codes followed this pattern: "12##." For instance, the Pine Camp Station Complement was SCSU 1209; the Pine Camp Cooks and Bakers School was SCSU 1233...and this citation is found on Internet:

 

"Lyn Knight Currency Auctions Bank Title: POW 1277 SCSU Pine Camp, New York, Grade: UNC ... opened in February 1944 and closed in May 1946 with a peak population of 976 German POWs. ... new.lynknight.com/ShowAuctionDetails.Asp?auction_Id=76999"

[Abby K-9]

Could it be the 2177th Service Command Unit?

 

No, I am pretty sure it's SCSU. But thanks so much for trying!

 

You might want to look up the 414th MP Company. They were originally the 414th PWEG (Prisoner of War Escort Group) and they have some info on their website about what they did.

 

Will do! Thank you!

 

Please confirm "2177th SCSU" as the first two digits appear to be reversed. Pine Camp was in Second Corps Area/Second Service Command's territory and its various four digit station codes followed this pattern: "12##." For instance, the Pine Camp Station Complement was SCSU 1209; the Pine Camp Cooks and Bakers School was SCSU 1233...and this citation is found on Internet:

 

"Lyn Knight Currency Auctions Bank Title: POW 1277 SCSU Pine Camp, New York, Grade: UNC ... opened in February 1944 and closed in May 1946 with a peak population of 976 German POWs. ... new.lynknight.com/ShowAuctionDetails.Asp?auction_Id=76999"

 

I just checked and yes, you are correct - it should be 1277th. I don't know why he wrote down to research the 2177th SCSU. I did try to go to the site you linked but I am getting a "not found" error. Could you tell me more about what it was?

[J_Andrews]

Is SCSU "Station Complement Service Unit"?

[Wailuna]

..."Lyn Knight Currency Auctions Bank Title: POW 1277 SCSU Pine Camp, New York, Grade: UNC ... opened in February 1944 and closed in May 1946 with a peak population of 976 German POWs. ... new.lynknight.com/ShowAuctionDetails.Asp?auction_Id=76999"

...I just checked and yes, you are correct - it should be 1277th...I did try to go to the site you linked but I am getting a "not found" error. Could you tell me more about what it was?

The citation is a closed auction listing from Lyn Knight Auctions. Google the search term "POW 1277 SCSU" and you will see all there is to see on Internet. The text obviously is elided but you might learn more from the auction house ((link here).

[siege1863]

For more than fifteen years, I have been researching and writing on the German POW camp at Clinton, Mississippi. I can tell you what you have. The 464th MPEG has been correctly identified as the 464th Military Police Escort Guard Company. One company, numbering 138 men (capt., 1st lt., 2nd lt, and 135 enlisted), was assigned to a camp for each 1000 POWs. You indicated the peak prisoner population was 976. This would indicate only one MPEG company, the 464th, would be at the camp.

 

Note that in the spring of 1944, an order was issued for all MPEG companies to disband. The men, those fit, were to be sent to the various theaters of war or where else needed. Their use as stateside guards was deemed a waste of manpower. By the fall, most of these men had been integrated into other units. Those unfit for overseas service remained in the camp and were bolstered by like replacements. This new contingent was re-designated the camp's "MP Detachment."

 

Regarding the other unit, this was the Service Command Unit (SCU) assigned to the camp to perform administrative duties (headquarters, medical, engineer, etc.). I believe that, since Pine Camp (Fort Drum) was in the Second Service Command, the SCU number should begin with a "2." The SCU numbers were four digits long.

 

At Camp Clinton, we had the 458th, 459th, and 487th MPEG Companies and the 4408th SCU. The camp was in the Fourth Service Command.

[Wailuna]

...I believe that, since Pine Camp...was in the Second Service Command, the SCU number should begin with a "2." The SCU numbers were four digits long...at Camp Clinton, we had ...4408th SCU. The camp was in the Fourth Service Command...

Do you have ca. 1941 - 1945 docs. to show us with CASU/SCSU/SCU numbers beginning with "2" or "4" or any other number other than "1"?

[siege1863]

Okay, after some further research, I have found what I now believe to be the connection between the SCU numbers and the Service Command. It is not the first digit, but rather the second. Here are some examples:

 

 

Fourth Service Command

1474--Camp Shelby MS

4408--Camp Clinton MS

1448--unspecified camp AL

 

Eighth Service Command

1871--Camp McLean TX

1850--Camp Chaffee AR

4817--unspecified camp OK

 

There does not appear to be any SCU numbers beginning with "2" or "3." I do not know why some SCU numbers begin with "4." The "1XXX" numbers seem to be the norm. For Pine Camp, SCU 1277 fits this pattern.

[Wailuna]

...There does not appear to be any SCU numbers beginning with "2" or "3." I do not know why some SCU numbers begin with "4." The "1XXX" numbers seem to be the norm....

Possibly because the larger Service Commands had more than 100 SCUs and thus needed to expand their numbering basis. As SCU numbers were used on punch cards for unit strength and material accounting, adding a 5th digit to the string most likely was not an option.

[tredhed2]

In response to:

 

1) Wailua's request re: docs and SCUs beginning w/ certain #s, and

 

2) Siege1863 not finding any SCUs beginnning w/ variious #s, and

 

3) because J_Andrews nailed it, and

 

4) foremost, probably because I am a junior member of Wailua's Insomniacs, Inc, I paged thru the DOA Unit Citation blah blah blah. and found that all SCSUs, or SCUs, had the second # in their respective 4-digit unit ID correspond w/ their service command for all the units which rec'd a Meritorius Unit Citation (MUC).

 

Of specific note:

 

1209th Svc Cmd Unit, POW Camp, Pine Camp, NY (MUC 2nd Svc Cmd 1945)

 

1209th Service Cmd Unit, Station Complement, HHD, Pine Camp, NY (MUC, 2nd Svc Cmd 1946)

 

DID NOT FIND 1277TH SCSU

 

I also found these, which didn't seem to follow numerical guidelines (3rd Svc Cmd area):

 

2502nd Service Command Unit, Ft. Meyer, VA (MUC, Mil Dist of Washington)

 

2504th SCU, Medical Activities (MUC, MDW)

 

2521st SCU, Station Complement and Medcial Activities, Army War College (MUC, MDW)

[jgawne]

I can tell you that some of the AES guys I knew used to talk about all the Italian POWs up at Pine Camp. As far as I recall, they only remembered Italians, not Germans. Now That's a pretty cold to be, so I doubt any of them came from North Africa- due to the Geneva convention rulings on conditions being similar to wherwe the POWs were captured.

[Wailuna]

...There does not appear to be any SCU numbers beginning with "2" or "3." I do not know why some SCU numbers begin with "4." The "1XXX" numbers seem to be the norm...

Here is a "3XXX" service unit sighting to add to the mix:

The 3300th SU, Pine Grove Furnace Internment Camp was redesignated the 3300th Service Unit, Prisoner of War Camp, Pine Grove Furnace, Pa., Hq. 3rd Service Command, General Orders, No. 74 31 Jul 43.

Link here for full text source.

[Guest AMMatth56]

For what it's worth, my dad was called up on 6 Mar 1943 from Enlisted Reserve to Active Duty as a private in the Army and told to report to "1222nd SCSU RC Camp Upton, NY" which is on Long Island. It was both a training camp and briefly a POW internment camp - later Brookhaven Labs.