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U.S. Uniforms with Fourragère


Ricardo
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Thank you Matt, that the units of the IX Tac Air Cmd got a Belgium Rope makes a whole lot of sense given there direct support of Ground Actions. Would the IX Tac Air Cmd have gotten any French Awards, obviously not multiple Croix De Guerres with Palm, but maybe one.

 

BTW It's not my Grand Dad, I don't know who's it is :lol:

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AAF_Collection

Thanks Patches, and I apologise for my mistake, I see you were quoting a post from "439th Signal Battalion" and it was his grandfather who was with the 439th.

 

I'm not aware of any Ninth Air Force units receiving the French Fourragere, but there were certainly individual awards of the French CdG.

 

Ian, Thanks for your comment. Although I have seen other examples of this citation this is the only one I have.

 

Matt.

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  • 1 month later...

on the subject of the Belgain Fourragere awarded to the AAF, on which shoulder should it be worn? I have seen pictures of it either way. I recently purchased an Ike jacket that has it on the right, need clairification please.

thanks

Terry

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi,

 

has any US Unit received both french fourrageres, WW1 and WW2?

 

Michael

Yes, 1st Infantry Division, and other units within the Division WWI and WWII, because of this Regiments and Battalions in 1945, and their descendent Battalions of today wear the Fourragere in the Color of the Medaille Militaire.

 

In the 3rd Division it is confusing, the Infantry Regiments were awarded Croix d Guerres in WWI, One award, the 4th and 7th Infantry was with Gold Star, while the other two Regiments, the 30th, and 38th Infantry's were in with Palm. In WWII the entire two remaining Regiments the 7th and 30th Infantry Regiments received second awards, for Colmar, the CdG with Plam, thus qualifying them to the Fourragere in the colors of the WWII Fourragere, but isn't the critira two awards of the CdG WITH Palm the critira for the Award of the Fouraggere?

 

The Entire Division in WWII received one CdG with Palm, the one for Colmar, but it's down on the record that they, the Division HQ have a Fourragere.

 

Even more confusing is the 15th Infantry, it was not part of the Division in WWI, it has one CdR to it's Credit, Colmar, like the Division HQ it too has down on the Record of having the WWII Fouraggere, perhaps in this case they, the 15th Inf as well as the 7th Inf which was awarded a CdG with Gold Star, took both their CdG with Palm for Colmar, and combinded it with the Entire Divisions CdG with Palm for Comar, thus making two awards of the CdR with Palm, this satisfiying the criteria for the Fourragere.

 

Wikipeadia's page on the French Rope lists the entire 2nd Armored Division as having the Rope in the colors of the Medaille Militaire, but this is incorrect, they and the subordinate units of the 2nd Armd Div do have the Belgian Rope, they being cited twice in the Ardennes, but no French CdG.

 

My Brain Is Fryed :lol:

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Interesting and weired.

 

In France only the palms of a Regiment count for the fourragere.

The lower units don´t wear a fourragere in case it has more palms.

 

And the regimental palmes aren´t count togehter for a fourragere worn by the brigade or division - only regiments wear fourrageres.

 

The french doesn´t count together palms from different conflict to get a higher fourragere.

For exampe the RICM wears a fourragere MM with olive TOE four five palmes in Indochine. The regiment earned a sixth palm in Liban ... 6 palmes mean fourragere LH, but not in this case, because it wasn´t earned in the same conflict.

 

Fourragere CdG WW1 and WW2 won´t be sumed up to get the fourragere MM. The fourragere CdG is worn with both olives WW1 and WW2.

 

Michael

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Yes Aubagne, that's what was in play here with the those units, a combining of the awards for WWI with the new awards for WWII, in the case of U.S. 1st Inf Div the Rope in the colors of MM, and in the case of the U.S. 3rd Inf Div the awarding of the Rope in the colors of the WWII CdG. The U.S. Marine Corps' 5th and 6th Marines as part of the U.S. Army's 2nd Division have one in the colors of the WWI CdG, they still wear it today, worn it ever since 1919, so to the two other Infantry Regiments that made up the U.S. 2nd Div in WWI, the 9th and 23rd Infantry Regiments. In WWII this Division consisted of the 9th, 23rd and 38th Infantry Regments, the 38th Inf Regt was actually a part of the WWI 3rd Div, it was transferred out in late 1939 over to the 2nd Div, it, the 38th Inf had it's award of the CdG with Palm from WWI, but did not receive another one in WWII, in fact none of the units of the 2nd Inf Div in WWII received a WWII CdG, so the French Rope they were then as today is the French Rope in the colors of WWI, though they were awarded the Beligian Rope, being cited two time in the Order of the Day of the Belgium Army for the Ardennes ( Battle of the Bulge )

 

Another loose thread is the 28th U.S. Infantry Regiment, it was a part of the 1st Division in WWI, but like the 38th Inf Regt in the 3rd Div, it too was transferred out in late 1939, it going to the 8th Division, it wore it's French Rope, the only unit in the 8th Division to do so throughout WWII. The 8th Infantry Division while having all it's units awarded at least one, or two in the case of the 28th Infantry, an award of the Distinguished Unit Citation, the DUC, now known as the Presidential Unit Citation, the PUC, it received no French or Belgian awards, though the entire Division did receive a Luxemburg CdG, one award, though I'm not sure why the 8th Inf Div was awarded that, possibly lending a hand in the clearing of German Troops from the Duchy after they arrived there from Brittany in Mid to late September 1944.

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Hi All,

 

Not a ww2 uniform but I'd thought I'd post it anyway as it is interesting. This particular USAF officer served in a Troop Carrier squadron post war but I am unsure as to what he did during WW2. Anyway I was wondering why he might be wearing this particular Fourragere. If he served as a troop carrier pilot during the Normandy campaign would that qualify him to wear such a device.

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

3prl.jpg

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In France the troops only wear the fourragere of their regiment. If they leave the regiment, they won´t wear it further.

 

There is "special" wear of the fourragere, it is called "a titre personnel" or "a titre individuell"

Since 25. Luly 1916 solders are allowed to wear the fourragere if they have left the unit.

But only if they took part in the battle the palmes were won.

For example, if a Regiment has six palmes and therefore the fourragere LH and the soldier took part in four "palm battles", so he was allowed to wear the fourragere MM "a titre individeull/personnel" for "his" four palms - but only if hte commandeur of his new regimentd give his ok.

This fourragere was worn with the brest badge or the number of the regiment.

 

Nowadays the members of the companies wear their company badge on the fourragere.

I saw this kind of wearing at the 110. Regiment d´Infanterie, part of the German-France brigade, in Donaueschingen/Germany.

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In 1936 a circulaire allowed to "inherit" palms.

 

So the Ecole des Fusiliers Marins sumed 5 palm from 1. Reg. Fusiliers Marins, 4 from 1. Bataillon de Fusiliers Marins Commandos, 2 from Reg. Blindé de FM and 2 from Commando Parachutistes de l´Aeronautique Navale - all together 13.

 

So they wear the triple divides olive for 12-14 palms, since 1949

http://www.netmarine.net/tradi/symbolique/fourrageres/index2.htm

 

1986 the Ecole (school) was "divided in several parts an organized in an other structur, the units took their palm with them and now its fourragere with a half-half CdG-MM olive.

 

Here are two interesting links with good pictures

in French http://fourrageres.blogspot.de/

in German http://www.deutsche-gesellschaft-fuer-ordenskunde.de/DGOWP/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ausgabe78.pdf

 

 

Michael

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Hi All,

 

Not a ww2 uniform but I'd thought I'd post it anyway as it is interesting. This particular USAF officer served in a Troop Carrier squadron post war but I am unsure as to what he did during WW2. Anyway I was wondering why he might be wearing this particular Fourragere. If he served as a troop carrier pilot during the Normandy campaign would that qualify him to wear such a device.

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

3prl.jpg

Koenig please see post # 69 through 78 on the previous page, page 4, the Rope you have there is it Red with Green flecks? if so it the Belgian Rope, which means he most likely was in the XXIX Tactical Air Command during the war.

 

.

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In France the troops only wear the fourragere of their regiment. If they leave the regiment, they won´t wear it further.

 

There is "special" wear of the fourragere, it is called "a titre personnel" or "a titre individuell"

Since 25. Luly 1916 solders are allowed to wear the fourragere if they have left the unit.

But only if they took part in the battle the palmes were won.

For example, if a Regiment has six palmes and therefore the fourragere LH and the soldier took part in four "palm battles", so he was allowed to wear the fourragere MM "a titre individeull/personnel" for "his" four palms - but only if hte commandeur of his new regimentd give his ok.

This fourragere was worn with the brest badge or the number of the regiment.

 

Nowadays the members of the companies wear their company badge on the fourragere.

I saw this kind of wearing at the 110. Regiment d´Infanterie, part of the German-France brigade, in Donaueschingen/Germany.

That's the same criteira here as well, to use myself as an example in the early 1980s, I was in the 4th Battalion 9th Infantry, my last duty assignment of a three year hitch, in this unit we had Both French and Belgian Ropes, however only the French one was worn, and if I would of re-enlisted or had more time on my enlistment and left, say for the 24th Inf Div at Fort Stewart Georgia as my next Duty Assigment, then once I settled in with my new unit, no more French Fourragere, I could wear it in transit, to Stewart, if I choose to wear my Class A, which I did every time I traveled, but once proccesed in to the new unit, then I would be required to wear the unit awards of my new unit whichever those might be.

 

The same applies to U.S. Unit Awards, like the PUC, VUC, MUC, like the WWI and WWII French and Belgian Forrragere, unless one was in the unit at the actual time of the action or actions the award was given for, then one must remove them when they assigned to another new unit, but from at least the 50s on, in general practice one wears the U.S. unit awards of the unit they currently serve in, this is done for Uniformities sake. If one as far as U.S. unit awards are concerned, serve in a unit that has no PUCs etc, say like Pentagon people, real Higher Command Organizations like the Army Material Command etc, or Drill Sergeants etc, THEN they are free to wear the Unit Awards of their unit in wartime, in example an early 1960s Drill Sergeant, a Korean War Veteran of oh say the 7th Infantry Division's 32nd Infantry, he can wear his Korean War Citations his unit was awarded as he was there in the unit at the time of the actions, wearing them on his Class A and Khakis

 

Ones I had for instance in my first duty assignment when I was in the 2nd Battalion 12th Cavalry 1st Cavalry Division were the PUC w/ 3 Oak Leaf Clusters, and the VUC w/ 2 Oak Leaf Clusters, these being permanent unit awards, awarded the unit in WWII and Vietnam, as mentioned when I travel I wore the Class A, here home to NYC for Leave and then North to Alaska, once settled in to my new unit the 4/9th Inf, I now had to remove my 1st Cav Div patch and unit awards and switch to the 9th Inf's, to include the French Rope, and so it is for every unit in the U.S. Army whether back in the 20s and 30s for the WWI guys from units with the French Rope, up to today.

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  • 1 year later...

I have posted this elsewhere, but thought I would it was worth seeing again. This is an ID'd coat from a 23rd Infantry, 2nd Division veteran. Notice the indian head and regimental insignia on his cord. Also I received from NARA his award cards which show this as being an individual award.

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  • 10 months later...

post-34986-0-55924200-1464886475.jpg

 

Here's cool photo. A French Rope on a 2nd Reconnaissance Squadron, 15th Cavalry, 4th Armored Division GI. The time period is 1958-59 or so in West Germany. Now no elmts of the 15th Cavalry were awarded a French Croix de Guerre no less two of them, nor a PUC. So this GI is wearing both by virtue of the entire 4th Armored Division's receiving them in WWII., the PUC for Ardennes, the two CdG, for Normandy, and one for Moselle.

 

As an aside, this unit, the 2nd Reconnaissance Squadron, 15th Cavalry, is never listed for some reason on online sources for the 15th Cavalry, nor in Sawicki, you got to look at that USAEUR site to see it. Also this GI has opted for wear that day, the soon to be obsolete Khaki Garrison Cap rather than the New Army Green 44 Cap (the Transitional Period you see)

 

 

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  • 3 months later...

attachicon.gifHPIM4522.JPG

3rd Armored Division 36th Armored Infantry Regiment. The first battalion was the only one to get the PUC, and you dont see a whole lot of Armored Division Ike's with Fourragere's

 

An armored division uniform with a combat infantry badge is that possible?

I figured it was not intended for the armored troops.

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An armored division uniform with a combat infantry badge is that possible?

I figured it was not intended for the armored troops.

Armored Divisions as you know had Infantry, the Armored infantry Battalion, but your right on the collar disc, Armd Inf wore Infantry Crossed Rifles, So on the disc not sure.

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Absolutely possible. Each armored division had its own infantry regiments as well as armored regiments. Armored Divisions were more heavy on the armored units as Infantry Divisions were heavier on the infantry units

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I know I am stretching the topic a bit, but I would like to know some more about the other things we see on this uniform, like the 5 ribbons on the medal bar and the patch with the rainbow. Can someone enlighten me on these also?

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I know I am stretching the topic a bit, but I would like to know some more about the other things we see on this uniform, like the 5 ribbons on the medal bar and the patch with the rainbow. Can someone enlighten me on these also?

 

post-34986-0-32977600-1473442452_thumb.jpg

The patch with the Rainbow is Supreme Allied Expeditionary Forces or as it's commonly abbreviated SHAEF. The ribbons are Top, Purple Heart, WWII Victory, the bottom three are Army Good Conduct, American Campaign, and European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign with three Campaign Stars. The Good Conduct really should be where the WWII Victory is and visa versa, but wrongly placed ribbons on discharging servicemen in at the end or after the war is common enough, so not a big deal if one see this.

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  • 8 months later...

post-34986-0-08007900-1495470304_thumb.jpg

Abe Abrams wears French Fourragère as CO of the 63th Tk Bn, 1st Inf Div in Germany in 1949, hey he forgot to button his cuff there we see :D. He was entitled to wear it as he was awarded it for WWII, 4th Armd Div service.

 

Now the 63rd Tk Bn in WWII was a part of the 1st Inf Div. In WWII it was the 745th Tk Bn, a Separate Battalion and was attached to the BIg Red One. It's own awards, because it was only with the division obviously in WWII, it lacks the multiple awards of the Croix de Guerre the other unit of the division had, thus they didn't wear the Fourragère in the colors of the Médaille Militaire.

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

I just posted this photo of 3 time CIB recipient Francis J.Ruddy in the Third Award Combat Infantryman's Badge. This photo was taken in 1957, and here we see what is either a Belgian Rope or a French one, curious thing is Ruddy fought in the 517th PIR, 17th Abn Div, a unit that wasn't awarded either of them, in Korea with the 187th RCT, no awards there naturally. As we look to the left we see a cropped out GI with the rope too, could this be then some kind of SF thing whoever brief in the 50s???

 

post-34986-0-01715200-1536547235.jpg

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  • 2 years later...

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