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no weapon qualification badges??? must have fought with his bare hands?!? :think: :blink:

Eric Ryan

Hospital Corpsman (Seaman)

US Navy

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...no weapon qualification badges??? must have fought with his bare hands?!!

S/Sgt. Carothers did not go unarmed into combat. Although he was qualified as Marksman with carbine and pistol, he was as a B-17 gunner in ETO and he was rated as an Aerial Gunner, which accounts for that set of wings on the uniform (link here for official verification of his qualifications). Perhaps the creator of the uniform in question omitted S/Sgt. Carothers' Marksman badge so as not to overdo things.

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Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:


"To every man upon this earth death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,


For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods."

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  • 3 years later...

This is an old thread BUT Attached a few items for Harold M. Carothers,100th BG(H) 351st BS TG,

one is his decorations certificate authorized to wear. (Pretty damn impressive from two ETO's) The other is a 100th BG Lucky Bastards certificate from a reunion I'm guessing.

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  • 2 weeks later...
carbinephalen

Soooo...is that jacket's ribbon bars legitimate then? Or did somebody do some fancy typewriter work??.......

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301st Medical and 301st Engineer Battalions


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Soooo...is that jacket's ribbon bars legitimate then? Or did somebody do some fancy typewriter work??.......

I'm guessing the latter...his discharge paperwork is pretty clear on what he earned...

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia

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  • 1 year later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I have the original paperwork to this group. The originals to the copies shown above. Definitely original, no fancy typewriter work here. I also have the original caterpillar club certificate, member card, pin and letter from Switlik. None of which were replacements. I will post pictures in the next few days.

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I have the original paperwork to this group. The originals to the copies shown above. Definitely original, no fancy typewriter work here. I also have the original caterpillar club certificate, member card, pin and letter from Switlik. None of which were replacements. I will post pictures in the next few days.

Please post it!

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia

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I apologize in advance. This is the only way I can post pictures to the forum. For some reason everything I try to upload is too large.

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FT.Monmouth1943...thanks! :)

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia

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I hate to say it...but I'm still not a believer. I'm fine with what's on his DD-214, but thus far, there's no official proof his other awards (e.g. nothing to corroborate the paper signed by "R.P. Cullivan" that was signed in May 1945...crediting him with SIX campaigns in the PTO, when he was wearing seven on his ribbon bar, four on his ETO when he was also wearing more, no corroboration of the Philippine Defense...no MACR for the flight that was lost, no DSC or SS records...yeah...no...)

 

I would love to have egg on my face to actually redeem the legacy of this soldier, so I am standing by to be disproven in my thoughts.

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia

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Just as a random aside, here's Raymond Philip Cullivan, who signed the document (or who might have signed the document...)

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Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia

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This is direct from the 34th Bomb Group Mission Diary:

 

"B-17G 43-38392 B/E “Old Crow” with 18BS crash-landed at Ampton, UK during assembly. #3 engine caught fire at 12,000 feet and pilot ordered the crew to bail out. All the crew got out OK, but the explosion of the plane when it hit the ground apparently collapsed the ball gunner’s chute, letting him fall the last 150-200 feet to the ground. Pilot: W. S. Jones. 1 Killed in Action. Plane was salvaged.

RTD JONES W S (P)

RTD CLARKE (CP)

RTD BLOCZYNSKI (N)

RTD DOOLEY (B)

RTD NEAL ®

RTD ALLEN (E)

KIA MAHER ROBERT A (BT) SGT 18 18193045

RTD CAROTHERS (gunner)

RTD CHAFFEE (gunner)"

 

This isn't the first crash I've seen without a MACR. I'm still looking for more info for you to try to turn this around. It's gone way too far in the wrong direction for someone that's actually sacrificed so much to be discredited. I will be doing some deep digging.

 

This has been a great thread though.​

 

 

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Thanks flyboy_trav for your continued work! If love to get to the bottom of it!

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia

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Here is the B-17's history:

 

43-38392 Old Crow

B-17G-85-BO

 

July 28, 1944 Delivered to Cheyenne

August 6, 1944 to Kearney

August 17, 1944 to Dow Field

August 18, 1944 Assigned to the 18th Squadron, 34th Bomb Group, Mendlesham

 

Mission #64 September 17, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Brain

Mission #66 September 22, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Brain

Mission #67 September 25, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Parrish

Mission #71 October 2, 1944 43-38392 B/E 4BS Bice

 

October 2, 1944 43-38392 B/E

On Marshalling Chart on Hardstand #14 at 2100-2200 hours.

 

Mission #72 October 3, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. S.

Mission #73 October 5, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #74 October 6, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Major damage.

Mission #75 October 7, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Coupland

Mission #76 October 9, 1944 43-38392 B/E Lerch

Mission #77 October 14, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #78 October 15, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Major damage.

Mission #81 October 22, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #82 October 25, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Aborted – mechanical.

Mission #84 October 28, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Gardner

Mission #85 October 30, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Bouldin

Mission #87 November 5, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. One wounded.

Mission #89 November 9, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #90 November 16, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #91 November 21, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L.

Mission #92 November 25, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Hemingway

Mission #93 November 26, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #95 November 30, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. S. Major damage

Mission #98 December 6, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #99 December 11, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Hemingway

Mission #100 December 12, 1944 43-38392 B/E 391BS Richardson

Mission #101 December 15, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson

Mission #103 December 27, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L.

Mission #104 December 28, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Major damage.

Mission #105 December 30, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L.

Mission #106 December 31, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L.

Mission #107 January 2, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Knowlton

Mission #108 January 3, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L.

Mission #109 January 7, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Knowlton

Mission #110 January 10, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Thaete Failed to take off.

Mission #111 January 13, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Tigges

Mission #112 January 14, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Peede

Mission #113 January 15, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Mann

 

Mission #114 January 16, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Jones, W.

Caught fire and crashed 5 miles N of Bury St. Edmunds.

Ball gunner killed.

 

Mission #114 January 16, 1945 B-17G 43-38392 B/E Old Crow with 18BS crash-landed at Ampton, UK during assembly. #3 engine caught fire at 12,000 feet and pilot ordered the crew to bail out. All the crew got out OK, but the explosion of the plane when it hit the ground apparently collapsed the ball gunner’s chute, letting him fall the last 150-200 feet to the ground. Pilot: W. S. Jones. 1 Killed in Action. Plane was salvaged.

RTD JONES WYATT S (P)

RTD CLARKE (CP)

RTD BLOCZYNSKI (N)

RTD DOOLEY (B)

RTD NEAL ®

RTD ALLEN (E)

KIA MAHER ROBERT A (BT) SGT 18 18193045

RTD CAROTHERS (gunner)

RTD CHAFFEE (gunner)

 

 

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uniformcollector

Are any of those medals engraved?

Will Twomey

In Honor of:

USA General John Wickham (1928-)

USAF Colonel Bernie Fisher MOH (1927-2014)

USMC Sergeant Al De Vito (Chosin Reservoir Survivor) (1926-)

USA Cpl. Macedonio Leyba (Bataan Death March survivor) (1917-2007)

 

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I've just spent the last hour looking at the ribbons, the documents, the stories...trying to put together some semblance of a timeline or something that makes sense. We don't have his separation certificate from his second enlistment (through 1943) so that's not available for comment, but still...there are so many holes in the entire story it looks like Swiss cheese. I really, honestly think that this guy was telling tall tales, even while he was in the service.

 

Hope more stuff can surface...it's a very interesting case...I've never seen anything quite like this before that happened at this level during the war...

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia

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There is a photo of him here: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=25460230

 

Here is something interesting that seems to corroborate the story:

"Gen. Henry (Hap') Arnold, commanding general of the army air forces, has commended S/Sgt. Harold M. Carothers of Denver lor deciding to fight the Japanese although the bemedaled sergeant's 168 points make him eligible for discharge. Carother's decision to "stick to your guns" with the AAF "has served the purpose of emphasizing to the American public that we are still at war and that the AAF will not rest until the strategic targets of Japan are reduced, as were those of Germany, to rubble," Gen. Arnold wrote. The sergeant soon will leave the AAF redistribution station here for B-29 flight engineer school in preparation for a crack at the Japanese. In his European warfare, he won the silver star, distinguished flying cross, distinguished service cross, the soldiers medal, the purple heart with one cluster and the air medal with 11 clusters. He rates as his greatest thrill his experience on Feb. 3, 1944, when the allied air forces began the "obliteration campaign" over Berlin. His ship dumped a cargo of bombs over Hitler's headquarters, and as tail gunner, he was able to see the destruction caused by the raid. Sgt. Carothers received the soldiers medal for pulling the pilot out of their crashed plane on Jan. 16, 1945."

 

From the Mason City (Iowa) Globe of July 25th, 1945. http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/38191157/

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