dartheric1 Posted June 23, 2010 Share #51 Posted June 23, 2010 no weapon qualification badges??? must have fought with his bare hands?!? :think: Link to post Share on other sites
Wailuna Posted June 24, 2010 Share #52 Posted June 24, 2010 ...no weapon qualification badges??? must have fought with his bare hands?!! S/Sgt. Carothers did not go unarmed into combat. Although he was qualified as Marksman with carbine and pistol, he was as a B-17 gunner in ETO and he was rated as an Aerial Gunner, which accounts for that set of wings on the uniform (link here for official verification of his qualifications). Perhaps the creator of the uniform in question omitted S/Sgt. Carothers' Marksman badge so as not to overdo things. Link to post Share on other sites
GREMLIN2 Posted November 12, 2013 Share #53 Posted November 12, 2013 This is an old thread BUT Attached a few items for Harold M. Carothers,100th BG(H) 351st BS TG, one is his decorations certificate authorized to wear. (Pretty damn impressive from two ETO's) The other is a 100th BG Lucky Bastards certificate from a reunion I'm guessing. Link to post Share on other sites
carbinephalen Posted November 27, 2013 Share #54 Posted November 27, 2013 Soooo...is that jacket's ribbon bars legitimate then? Or did somebody do some fancy typewriter work??....... Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share #55 Posted November 27, 2013 Soooo...is that jacket's ribbon bars legitimate then? Or did somebody do some fancy typewriter work??....... I'm guessing the latter...his discharge paperwork is pretty clear on what he earned... Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 19, 2015 Share #56 Posted October 19, 2015 Does anyone know where this uniform is or who may have it??? Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #57 Posted October 28, 2015 I have the original paperwork to this group. The originals to the copies shown above. Definitely original, no fancy typewriter work here. I also have the original caterpillar club certificate, member card, pin and letter from Switlik. None of which were replacements. I will post pictures in the next few days. Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share #58 Posted October 28, 2015 I have the original paperwork to this group. The originals to the copies shown above. Definitely original, no fancy typewriter work here. I also have the original caterpillar club certificate, member card, pin and letter from Switlik. None of which were replacements. I will post pictures in the next few days. Please post it! Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #59 Posted October 28, 2015 Here are the photos: http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/flyboy_trav/slideshow/ Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #60 Posted October 28, 2015 I apologize in advance. This is the only way I can post pictures to the forum. For some reason everything I try to upload is too large. Link to post Share on other sites
FT.Monmouth1943 Posted October 28, 2015 Share #61 Posted October 28, 2015 Link to post Share on other sites
FT.Monmouth1943 Posted October 28, 2015 Share #62 Posted October 28, 2015 Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share #63 Posted October 28, 2015 FT.Monmouth1943...thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share #64 Posted October 28, 2015 I hate to say it...but I'm still not a believer. I'm fine with what's on his DD-214, but thus far, there's no official proof his other awards (e.g. nothing to corroborate the paper signed by "R.P. Cullivan" that was signed in May 1945...crediting him with SIX campaigns in the PTO, when he was wearing seven on his ribbon bar, four on his ETO when he was also wearing more, no corroboration of the Philippine Defense...no MACR for the flight that was lost, no DSC or SS records...yeah...no...) I would love to have egg on my face to actually redeem the legacy of this soldier, so I am standing by to be disproven in my thoughts. Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share #65 Posted October 28, 2015 Just as a random aside, here's Raymond Philip Cullivan, who signed the document (or who might have signed the document...) Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #66 Posted October 28, 2015 This is direct from the 34th Bomb Group Mission Diary: "B-17G 43-38392 B/E “Old Crow” with 18BS crash-landed at Ampton, UK during assembly. #3 engine caught fire at 12,000 feet and pilot ordered the crew to bail out. All the crew got out OK, but the explosion of the plane when it hit the ground apparently collapsed the ball gunner’s chute, letting him fall the last 150-200 feet to the ground. Pilot: W. S. Jones. 1 Killed in Action. Plane was salvaged. RTD JONES W S (P) RTD CLARKE (CP) RTD BLOCZYNSKI (N) RTD DOOLEY ( RTD NEAL ® RTD ALLEN (E) KIA MAHER ROBERT A (BT) SGT 18 18193045 RTD CAROTHERS (gunner) RTD CHAFFEE (gunner)" This isn't the first crash I've seen without a MACR. I'm still looking for more info for you to try to turn this around. It's gone way too far in the wrong direction for someone that's actually sacrificed so much to be discredited. I will be doing some deep digging. This has been a great thread though. Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #67 Posted October 28, 2015 And the little sunglass face next to Dooley was not in the diary, lol. Not sure what happened there. Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #68 Posted October 28, 2015 He looks like an honest fellow Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share #69 Posted October 28, 2015 Thanks flyboy_trav for your continued work! If love to get to the bottom of it! Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #70 Posted October 28, 2015 Here is the B-17's history: 43-38392 Old Crow B-17G-85-BO July 28, 1944 Delivered to Cheyenne August 6, 1944 to Kearney August 17, 1944 to Dow Field August 18, 1944 Assigned to the 18th Squadron, 34th Bomb Group, Mendlesham Mission #64 September 17, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Brain Mission #66 September 22, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Brain Mission #67 September 25, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Parrish Mission #71 October 2, 1944 43-38392 B/E 4BS Bice October 2, 1944 43-38392 B/E On Marshalling Chart on Hardstand #14 at 2100-2200 hours. Mission #72 October 3, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. S. Mission #73 October 5, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #74 October 6, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Major damage. Mission #75 October 7, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Coupland Mission #76 October 9, 1944 43-38392 B/E Lerch Mission #77 October 14, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #78 October 15, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Major damage. Mission #81 October 22, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #82 October 25, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Aborted – mechanical. Mission #84 October 28, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Gardner Mission #85 October 30, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Bouldin Mission #87 November 5, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. One wounded. Mission #89 November 9, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #90 November 16, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #91 November 21, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Mission #92 November 25, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Hemingway Mission #93 November 26, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #95 November 30, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. S. Major damage Mission #98 December 6, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #99 December 11, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Hemingway Mission #100 December 12, 1944 43-38392 B/E 391BS Richardson Mission #101 December 15, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson Mission #103 December 27, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Mission #104 December 28, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Major damage. Mission #105 December 30, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Mission #106 December 31, 1944 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Mission #107 January 2, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Knowlton Mission #108 January 3, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Richardson, L. Mission #109 January 7, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Knowlton Mission #110 January 10, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Thaete Failed to take off. Mission #111 January 13, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Tigges Mission #112 January 14, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Peede Mission #113 January 15, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Mann Mission #114 January 16, 1945 43-38392 B/E 18BS Jones, W. Caught fire and crashed 5 miles N of Bury St. Edmunds. Ball gunner killed. Mission #114 January 16, 1945 B-17G 43-38392 B/E Old Crow with 18BS crash-landed at Ampton, UK during assembly. #3 engine caught fire at 12,000 feet and pilot ordered the crew to bail out. All the crew got out OK, but the explosion of the plane when it hit the ground apparently collapsed the ball gunner’s chute, letting him fall the last 150-200 feet to the ground. Pilot: W. S. Jones. 1 Killed in Action. Plane was salvaged. RTD JONES WYATT S (P) RTD CLARKE (CP) RTD BLOCZYNSKI (N) RTD DOOLEY ( RTD NEAL ® RTD ALLEN (E) KIA MAHER ROBERT A (BT) SGT 18 18193045 RTD CAROTHERS (gunner) RTD CHAFFEE (gunner) Link to post Share on other sites
uniformcollector Posted October 28, 2015 Share #71 Posted October 28, 2015 Are any of those medals engraved? Link to post Share on other sites
Flyboy_trav Posted October 28, 2015 Share #72 Posted October 28, 2015 No. Unfortunately not. Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share #73 Posted October 28, 2015 I've just spent the last hour looking at the ribbons, the documents, the stories...trying to put together some semblance of a timeline or something that makes sense. We don't have his separation certificate from his second enlistment (through 1943) so that's not available for comment, but still...there are so many holes in the entire story it looks like Swiss cheese. I really, honestly think that this guy was telling tall tales, even while he was in the service. Hope more stuff can surface...it's a very interesting case...I've never seen anything quite like this before that happened at this level during the war... Link to post Share on other sites
MattS Posted October 28, 2015 Share #74 Posted October 28, 2015 Not a lot of help on fold3 either. Link to post Share on other sites
MattS Posted October 28, 2015 Share #75 Posted October 28, 2015 There is a photo of him here: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=25460230 Here is something interesting that seems to corroborate the story: "Gen. Henry (Hap') Arnold, commanding general of the army air forces, has commended S/Sgt. Harold M. Carothers of Denver lor deciding to fight the Japanese although the bemedaled sergeant's 168 points make him eligible for discharge. Carother's decision to "stick to your guns" with the AAF "has served the purpose of emphasizing to the American public that we are still at war and that the AAF will not rest until the strategic targets of Japan are reduced, as were those of Germany, to rubble," Gen. Arnold wrote. The sergeant soon will leave the AAF redistribution station here for B-29 flight engineer school in preparation for a crack at the Japanese. In his European warfare, he won the silver star, distinguished flying cross, distinguished service cross, the soldiers medal, the purple heart with one cluster and the air medal with 11 clusters. He rates as his greatest thrill his experience on Feb. 3, 1944, when the allied air forces began the "obliteration campaign" over Berlin. His ship dumped a cargo of bombs over Hitler's headquarters, and as tail gunner, he was able to see the destruction caused by the raid. Sgt. Carothers received the soldiers medal for pulling the pilot out of their crashed plane on Jan. 16, 1945." From the Mason City (Iowa) Globe of July 25th, 1945. http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/38191157/ Link to post Share on other sites
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