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Sabrejet

USMC / USN Captains' bars?

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Would I be correct in assuming that these Captains' bars are intended for wear by USMC/USN officers by virtue of the fact that the bars are joined top and bottom to form a square? They're full-size bars just marked "Sterling" and have a nice aged patina. They have a basic open-clasp fastener (theatre-made?!) so would anyone care to suggest approximately when they might date from? Thank you.

 

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Sabrejet


"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!"

 

Winston Churchill

" Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

John Winston Lennon

 

 

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They're actually a hybrid... USMC Captain's and USN Lieuenant's bars make the "square" (vice being like "railroad tracks") BUT they don't have the edge taper that these do. Interesting.

 

They are beautiful though!

 

Dave


Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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By the configuration of the hinge on the pin and the open loop catch, I would say that they appear to be German made.

I would also say that as many of these same style bars that I've encountered with the tapered edges, these were most likely worn by an army captain rather than a USN or USMC officer.

Allan


Never under-estimate the power of prayer.

 

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Thanks for the helpful responses so far!

 

Sabrejet :thumbsup:


"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!"

 

Winston Churchill

" Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

John Winston Lennon

 

 

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By the configuration of the hinge on the pin and the open loop catch, I would say that they appear to be German made.

I would also say that as many of these same style bars that I've encountered with the tapered edges, these were most likely worn by an army captain rather than a USN or USMC officer.

Allan

Agree-

Despite the connector bar being flush with the edges of the rank bars, these are Army. USMC/USN bars would not have the bevelled edges that these have. USMC/USN bars always have the flat edges.

 

I have also seen British-made captain bars like these (i.e., connector bars flush with the edges of the rank bars and bevelled edges.)

 

Kurt


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Hi Kurt! Yeah? Ok...fair enuffski!!

 

Ian :thumbsup:


"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!"

 

Winston Churchill

" Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

John Winston Lennon

 

 

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It isn't uncommon for the Army bars to have the cross bar on the ends rather than moved in. These are all WW2 era cloth versions but the bar is on the edge.

 

POPLIN

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COTTON

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BULLION ON ELASTIQUE

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ELASTIQUE

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HELMET DECAL WITH RECESSED CROSSBARS

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PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER, SADLY, HAS PASSED AWAY

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I have an attributed M1 fixed bail with a similar set of bars affixed to the front. It belonged to a US Army Captain who served in the 13th Airborne Div. I have the mate to the bars, but not with me.

 

Sabrejet's bars have a British like pin and catch. The one I have is a US style IIRC.


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Interesting variants Craig..I have some similar examples myself but didn't make the connection. That said, from a purely practical point of view I suppose it was easier and quicker to run the embroidery thread straight across rather than to "step" it. This in itself could have determined why such embroidered bars are "square"?

 

Ian


"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!"

 

Winston Churchill

" Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

John Winston Lennon

 

 

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Everything said is correct. I thought It may be worth while to add photos of an H&H USMC captains insignia for reference

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Cpl James A Paris, USMC
Stinger Missile Gunner
H&S Co. Support Bn MCRDSD 2002-2003

MarDet Ft Bliss, TX 2003
2nd Plt 1st Stinger Btry, Okinawa 2003-2004
2nd Plt A Btry 3rd LAAD BN Camp Pendleton, CA 2004-2006

Please visit my blog: http://ourcountrysheroes.blogspot.com/

 

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I had a 1st Army Captain's uniform for a short time in my collection...the Capt. bars were closer to the USMC/USN type. They were flatter than the typical army style and lacked the beveled edges. The 'crossbar' was at the tops, not inset. I am 90% sure the uniform is original, I bought it in person from a reliable dealer. I've since sold it, but I always thought the Capt bars were unusual.

 

This topic and the uniform I described have led me to consider that perhaps some Army personnel purchased or came across the USN/USMC type bars here and there and ended up wearing them. Until I find some definite evidence...it will remain a mystery.

 

Rob


Exhausting & Dirty Work



Interested in buying identified or re-searchable Korean War uniforms, groupings, medals and more.

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I had a 1st Army Captain's uniform for a short time in my collection...the Capt. bars were closer to the USMC/USN type. They were flatter than the typical army style and lacked the beveled edges. The 'crossbar' was at the tops, not inset. I am 90% sure the uniform is original, I bought it in person from a reliable dealer. I've since sold it, but I always thought the Capt bars were unusual.

 

This topic and the uniform I described have led me to consider that perhaps some Army personnel purchased or came across the USN/USMC type bars here and there and ended up wearing them. Until I find some definite evidence...it will remain a mystery.

 

Rob

 

As always, there are plenty of variation to the rules, espically during WWII. Could be that the captain liked the more streamlined appearence of the flat style bars. They are somewhat larger, and give a cleaner appearence IMO. A member of the forum has a USMC officers uniform that has the pre war false bullion style captains bars that were worn by the army in the '20s. It is a direct vet purchase and even has photos of the officer with that insignia, which was never authorized for wear. He probably just liked it and wore what he wanted.

 

Its a good example of what we all need to remember as collectors. The servicemen of WWII were by and large, not professional soldiers. They simply wanted to get the war over with and return to their lives. Most didn't care about uniform regulations or whether their insignia was army or USMC issue or, in many cases even if it was placed in the right position.


Cpl James A Paris, USMC
Stinger Missile Gunner
H&S Co. Support Bn MCRDSD 2002-2003

MarDet Ft Bliss, TX 2003
2nd Plt 1st Stinger Btry, Okinawa 2003-2004
2nd Plt A Btry 3rd LAAD BN Camp Pendleton, CA 2004-2006

Please visit my blog: http://ourcountrysheroes.blogspot.com/

 

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This topic and the uniform I described have led me to consider that perhaps some Army personnel purchased or came across the USN/USMC type bars here and there and ended up wearing them. Until I find some definite evidence...it will remain a mystery.

 

 

I had a commanding officer in the Navy who wore a set of Army/Air Force LTC leaves on his shirt collars. Not sure if he just didn't notice, or if he was wearing them because they were given to him by someone special. Either way, I probably should have asked him.

 

Dave


Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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In a post I made just a little while ago, I attached a couple pictures of my newly-acquired WW-II Marine (and Navy) style H-H Imperial Captain's bars but will re-post one of the pix here for reference. I've also posted a composite of front and back of a pair of 1930s Marine Captain bars. You can see that, while the style of the bars is different, the edges of the bars have no bevel to them. At least on post WW-I and early 20s, this was a distinctive feature of Naval Service (Navy/Marine) rank bars.

 

I'm not saying that Naval service officers didn't wear Army/AAF rank insignia. When I was an AF 1st Lt, I wore a Marine LT bar on my 7th ACCS baseball hat and no one said a thing about it. Everyone knew that I was a former Marine; whether they didn't notice or just didn't say anything...I don't know but the official bars for the Naval service had no bevel to the edges.

 

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Semper fi; Bill











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