Verdigris - green crud on brass

[151mg]

Hello,

 

Ofr years I have have 3 17/18 dated packs in mint shape that are now getting the green creaping crud. Most cures are manually cremoving the junk and puting an oil based (or just oil) protective to keep air/moisture from it. While an ok think on a canteen fitting that has been on a well used (dirty) canteen cover, it is something to be avoided on a minty unissued item.

 

Anyone have a cure for the stuff, a cure or removal method that will not dirty. oil, damage or stain the fabric of a minty pack....or possibly an application that will just hault the growth of the mess?

 

thanks 151mg

[Blake_E]

Unfortunately, i havnt heard of one, that's just the way copper and brass oxidize with air and moisture. Perhaps metal polish, will put a fine layer of lacquer on it and protect it, but it may shine it too, and then it might not look original finish

[MAW]

When I had a build-up of this junk on the brass eyelets of a pair of WW1 Pershing boots, I just took a toothpick and carefully chipped it all away in order to stop the damage....the build-up was beginning to pull the eyelets completely out of the leather. FWIW

[SGM (ret.)]

Micro-crystalline wax (Renn Wax or its analog) will provide an air-resistant barrier between the metal and the atmosphere and slow down / limit / prohibit future corrosion.

 

Unlike oils, it will not migrate from the surface you put it on to the surrounding materials (like cloth or leather - although it's a good surface coating for hardened leather, too). Even if you get a small amount on surrounding cloth, it dries clear without causing any discoloration.

 

I've had some success with regular paste wax, but it's not as durable, has a slight yellow cast, doesn't dry as completely, and is not as "air tight" as a micro-crystalline wax.

 

Apply it carefully using cotton swabs and you can control the application quite well. If for some reason you want to remove it, just use ordinary mineral spirits (again using cotton swabs for small isolated areas).

 

HTH,

Mike

[Costa]

welcome to the crud club! if it is left unchecked it will build up and pull the eyelets- snaps right out of web gear and leather. i have it and so do many others on the forum and collectors i know. it is a constant fight that is why you have to check your items every so often. Q-TIPS, TOOTH PICKS---- what ever. you have to keep up with it.

[151mg]

Micro-crystalline wax (Renn Wax or its analog) will provide an air-resistant barrier between the metal and the atmosphere and slow down / limit / prohibit future corrosion.

 

Unlike oils, it will not migrate from the surface you put it on to the surrounding materials (like cloth or leather - although it's a good surface coating for hardened leather, too). Even if you get a small amount on surrounding cloth, it dries clear without causing any discoloration.

 

I've had some success with regular paste wax, but it's not as durable, has a slight yellow cast, doesn't dry as completely, and is not as "air tight" as a micro-crystalline wax.

 

Apply it carefully using cotton swabs and you can control the application quite well. If for some reason you want to remove it, just use ordinary mineral spirits (again using cotton swabs for small isolated areas).

 

HTH,

Mike

 

 

 

Thanks Mike,

 

Any idea where to get this stuff at a less than high price? Home depot? any ideas? thanks

[SGM (ret.)]

Thanks Mike,

 

Any idea where to get this stuff at a less than high price? Home depot? any ideas? thanks

 

Unfortunately, no. I don't know where to get Renaissance Wax at less than the killer prices that everybody seems to charge for it.

 

On the other hand, a very small amount goes a very long way. I've only managed to use two small, 230 ml cans in about 25 years (and I still have a little left in the second can). When you go to use it, use only 1/2 to 1/4 as much as you think you will need on any given surface. I think you might be surprised at just how little is needed to get complete coverage on hard surfaces. Basically, you should not be able to see the wax after you apply it. A thin coating is all that is really needed.

 

Porous surfaces will absorb some before it can be spread. This includes parkerized and blackened metals, rust, other corrosion, as well as wood and leather. Flat painted surfaces, like helmets, etc, will also absorb some of the wax which will have a tendency to "intensify" the color somewhat. These kinds of surfaces will take more wax than smooth coated surfaces. However, when applying the wax to blackened brass (LTD fasteners, grommets, belt hooks, etc), the size of the hardware items are usually so small that the corresponding amount of wax is also very small. Also, most increases in color "intensity" caused by the wax seem to lessen quite a bit as the wax fully dries.

 

(Verdigris residue will still show through, for example. Old looking hardware will still look "old" even with the wax. That is, the essential "patina" will mostly remain. What has not been cleaned away will not be greatly affected by the Renn Wax.)

 

The Renn Wax will generally not change the "luster" (glossy, semi-gloss, flat) of the surface since so little wax is used. You can "buff" the wax after it's been applied to achieve a slight sheen, but if the surface is truly "flat-lusterless" to start with, it will be so after the wax is applied. Without buffing, the Renn Wax dries flat.

 

Also, because so little is used, after it dries completely (usually in a few days), it will generally not show finger prints (which will show if you use ordinary paste wax).

 

I haven't shopped around seriously for a new can yet, but I will need to do so in the next few months. Having said that, it's actually much easier to find now than it was when I first started using it (on the recommendation of the curator of the 82nd ABN Museum at FBNC who was kind enough to spend a little time behind the scenes explaining some of his conservation measures to me back around 1986-87).

 

On-line sources are the only ones that I know of, and most of those are specialty conservation materials supply houses. The prices, when I've paid attention to them, seem pretty much the same from source to source.

 

Still, it's good stuff, and I feel worth the price in the long run. Because I handle most of my collection items so little (I also hold most of my items in display cases), I've very rarely felt the need to re-apply Renn Wax to very many artifacts. So, it's also economical in the sense that not only do you use very little at one time, but you don't need to re-use often. A single application generally lasts literally for years.

 

Renn Wax is not the "be-all-end-all" for conservation, but it will slow and limit deterioration from exposure to air. The collector will still need to do his or her part in periodic examination, routine cleaning (dusting, etc), and monitoring storage conditions.

 

HTH,

Mike

[151mg]

Unfortunately, no. I don't know where to get Renaissance Wax at less than the killer prices that everybody seems to charge for it.

 

On the other hand, a very small amount goes a very long way. I've only managed to use two small, 230 ml cans in about 25 years (and I still have a little left in the second can). When you go to use it, use only 1/2 to 1/4 as much as you think you will need on any given surface. I think you might be surprised at just how little is needed to get complete coverage on hard surfaces. Basically, you should not be able to see the wax after you apply it. A thin coating is all that is really needed.

 

Porous surfaces will absorb some before it can be spread. This includes parkerized and blackened metals, rust, other corrosion, as well as wood and leather. Flat painted surfaces, like helmets, etc, will also absorb some of the wax which will have a tendency to "intensify" the color somewhat. These kinds of surfaces will take more wax than smooth coated surfaces. However, when applying the wax to blackened brass (LTD fasteners, grommets, belt hooks, etc), the size of the hardware items are usually so small that the corresponding amount of wax is also very small. Also, most increases in color "intensity" caused by the wax seem to lessen quite a bit as the wax fully dries.

 

(Verdigris residue will still show through, for example. Old looking hardware will still look "old" even with the wax. That is, the essential "patina" will mostly remain. What has not been cleaned away will not be greatly affected by the Renn Wax.)

 

The Renn Wax will generally not change the "luster" (glossy, semi-gloss, flat) of the surface since so little wax is used. You can "buff" the wax after it's been applied to achieve a slight sheen, but if the surface is truly "flat-lusterless" to start with, it will be so after the wax is applied. Without buffing, the Renn Wax dries flat.

 

Also, because so little is used, after it dries completely (usually in a few days), it will generally not show finger prints (which will show if you use ordinary paste wax).

 

I haven't shopped around seriously for a new can yet, but I will need to do so in the next few months. Having said that, it's actually much easier to find now than it was when I first started using it (on the recommendation of the curator of the 82nd ABN Museum at FBNC who was kind enough to spend a little time behind the scenes explaining some of his conservation measures to me back around 1986-87).

 

On-line sources are the only ones that I know of, and most of those are specialty conservation materials supply houses. The prices, when I've paid attention to them, seem pretty much the same from source to source.

 

Still, it's good stuff, and I feel worth the price in the long run. Because I handle most of my collection items so little (I also hold most of my items in display cases), I've very rarely felt the need to re-apply Renn Wax to very many artifacts. So, it's also economical in the sense that not only do you use very little at one time, but you don't need to re-use often. A single application generally lasts literally for years.

 

Renn Wax is not the "be-all-end-all" for conservation, but it will slow and limit deterioration from exposure to air. The collector will still need to do his or her part in periodic examination, routine cleaning (dusting, etc), and monitoring storage conditions.

 

HTH,

Mike

 

 

You use this stuff on steel??? Had any bad experiences, discoloration rust etc??? Have you ever used it on a gun blue surface?

 

Sorry about pounding you with all the questions....Do you order it on line or get locally?

 

Thanks again 151mg

[SGM (ret.)]

You use this stuff on steel??? Had any bad experiences, discoloration rust etc??? Have you ever used it on a gun blue surface?

 

Sorry about pounding you with all the questions....Do you order it on line or get locally?

 

Thanks again 151mg

 

No worries about the questions; glad to help.

 

Yes, I've used it on blued and parkerized surfaces with no ill effects on either. These have been mostly small militaria items such as weapons accessories (tools, parts, cleaning accessories, etc) or individual equipment like tent pegs, etc. I have used it on an antique double barrel shotgun that belonged to my grandfather that is framed and displayed over my fireplace. (This is a gun that is not shot or handled any more, though.) On my "working" firearms (which I shoot regularly) I don't use the Renn Wax mostly because it's not economical - I use more modern oils and greases on the metal parts and tung oil (and Tom's 1/3 mix) on the wood.

 

The only surfaces that I don't regularly use Renn Wax on are cloth, paper, bare wood, clear acetate, rubber, and glass (which wouldn't benefit from it). I use it pretty regularly on painted / finished wood, bare and coated metal, hardened leather, Bakelite and some other plastics (natural rubber is one that I don't use it on). I've had pretty good success using Renn Wax on silver and silver plated objects to slow tarnish, as well as on brass and bronze for the same reason.

 

I have medals, orders, and decorations that have been in my collection for over 25 years after coating them with Renn Wax that are still as clean as when I applied the wax. I also have a lot of leather field gear with my German uniforms all of which has had Renn Wax applied and again much of that for 20+ years with no ill effects so far.

 

My basic criterion is whether or not the surface needs to be (or should be) protected from exposure to the air. It's not really a suitable "mechanical" surface protectant, that is, it's not a mechanical barrier to protect the surface from handling or physical damage.

 

It's not magic, and like I said above, I don't handle my collection items very much except for routine dusting, etc. Also, most of my collection is held in a fairly stable environment in so far as temp and humidity are concerned (not perfect, but also not the basement, garage, attic, or barn either).

 

However, I can honestly say that I don't have a single item in my collection which I think has suffered any ill effects from Renn Wax, but I do have many that were suffering from various states of deterioration (rust, corrosion, etc) that I do believe have stabilized because the Renn Wax has limited exposure to the air (especially to moisture in the air, but also other contaminants) and have not deteriorated any more since I have acquired them.

 

As I mentioned above, the only drawback is the tendency of the wax to "intensify" color. For example, a hypothetical M1 helmet painted in a flat OD which has a "whitish" look to it from aging paint, the Renn Wax will probably make the OD look fresher and "brighter." "Grayish" brass or bronze that was originally “blackened” will probably return to a darker, "blacker" shade after applying the wax. For this reason, I usually don't use Renn Wax on "minty" surfaces unless they are showing signs of deterioration (for instance, blackened bronze web gear fittings which have verdigris on them). However, if the item is already deteriorating, then the slight change in patina is, in my opinion, worth the protection that the wax gives.

 

As in much of life, there are trade-offs to be made. Others may feel that any change in their perception of the age patina on some item is too valuable and will be willing to live with the continued deterioration or will choose to control that deterioration in a different manner.

 

I would submit, though, that if you're at a stage where you're concerned about specific items in your collection, you're probably at a point where you're willing to accept some possible change in patina in order to halt the further deterioration of the items in question.

 

At any rate, I've been pleased with the results that I've gotten with the combination of methods that I use.

 

HTH,

Mike

 

Almost forgot: The fist can I got, I ordered by mail (and finding it in 1986-7 was quite the ordeal!). The can I have now I ordered online. I wish I could find a local source, but will probably order the next can online too.

[151mg]

No worries about the questions; glad to help.

 

Yes, I've used it on blued and parkerized surfaces with no ill effects on either. These have been mostly small militaria items such as weapons accessories (tools, parts, cleaning accessories, etc) or individual equipment like tent pegs, etc. I have used it on an antique double barrel shotgun that belonged to my grandfather that is framed and displayed over my fireplace. (This is a gun that is not shot or handled any more, though.) On my "working" firearms (which I shoot regularly) I don't use the Renn Wax mostly because it's not economical - I use more modern oils and greases on the metal parts and tung oil (and Tom's 1/3 mix) on the wood.

 

The only surfaces that I don't regularly use Renn Wax on are cloth, paper, bare wood, clear acetate, rubber, and glass (which wouldn't benefit from it). I use it pretty regularly on painted / finished wood, bare and coated metal, hardened leather, Bakelite and some other plastics (natural rubber is one that I don't use it on). I've had pretty good success using Renn Wax on silver and silver plated objects to slow tarnish, as well as on brass and bronze for the same reason.

 

I have medals, orders, and decorations that have been in my collection for over 25 years after coating them with Renn Wax that are still as clean as when I applied the wax. I also have a lot of leather field gear with my German uniforms all of which has had Renn Wax applied and again much of that for 20+ years with no ill effects so far.

 

My basic criterion is whether or not the surface needs to be (or should be) protected from exposure to the air. It's not really a suitable "mechanical" surface protectant, that is, it's not a mechanical barrier to protect the surface from handling or physical damage.

 

It's not magic, and like I said above, I don't handle my collection items very much except for routine dusting, etc. Also, most of my collection is held in a fairly stable environment in so far as temp and humidity are concerned (not perfect, but also not the basement, garage, attic, or barn either).

 

However, I can honestly say that I don't have a single item in my collection which I think has suffered any ill effects from Renn Wax, but I do have many that were suffering from various states of deterioration (rust, corrosion, etc) that I do believe have stabilized because the Renn Wax has limited exposure to the air (especially to moisture in the air, but also other contaminants) and have not deteriorated any more since I have acquired them.

 

As I mentioned above, the only drawback is the tendency of the wax to "intensify" color. For example, a hypothetical M1 helmet painted in a flat OD which has a "whitish" look to it from aging paint, the Renn Wax will probably make the OD look fresher and "brighter." "Grayish" brass or bronze that was originally “blackened” will probably return to a darker, "blacker" shade after applying the wax. For this reason, I usually don't use Renn Wax on "minty" surfaces unless they are showing signs of deterioration (for instance, blackened bronze web gear fittings which have verdigris on them). However, if the item is already deteriorating, then the slight change in patina is, in my opinion, worth the protection that the wax gives.

 

As in much of life, there are trade-offs to be made. Others may feel that any change in their perception of the age patina on some item is too valuable and will be willing to live with the continued deterioration or will choose to control that deterioration in a different manner.

 

I would submit, though, that if you're at a stage where you're concerned about specific items in your collection, you're probably at a point where you're willing to accept some possible change in patina in order to halt the further deterioration of the items in question.

 

At any rate, I've been pleased with the results that I've gotten with the combination of methods that I use.

 

HTH,

Mike

 

Almost forgot: The fist can I got, I ordered by mail (and finding it in 1986-7 was quite the ordeal!). The can I have now I ordered online. I wish I could find a local source, but will probably order the next can online too.

 

Mike , you forgot to add that you are the distributor for Ren Wax for North America!!! LOL!! Well at least you should be....

 

SOLD! I have been using Pecards on my helmet liners with good results, base on the advise of a friend so what the heck, I'll give it a go.

 

thanks Mike appreciated indeed. :thumbsup:

[Captainofthe7th]

I've used a reasonable bit of WD40 and a modified toothbrush to clean verdigris...of course you have to be careful to avoid running into the fabric. It works well, from what I've done so far.

 

Rob

[ChrisG43]

If you have a dremel rotary tool get one of the soft nylon brushes to go with it. The nylon is soft enough it won't scratch the metal fittings or do damage to canvas, but with the high rotary speed it'll take the verdigris right off. Also, you can easily get into nooks and crevices that would otherwise be difficult. Chris...

[1A291E]

Ok...here's my 2 cents worth...

 

Like someone else suggested...I use a Dremel tool with a small brush attachment and a dental pick and take my time..yup! it's slow but it works. If the backened part is not sctatched, i'll use some of my Mothers Carnuba wax to help seal it. I have been told that Carnuba wax is the hardest wax out there??...it works for me and so far a number of pouches and belt buckles that I did at least 5 years ago, have showed no return of the "green stuff"!! and I live on the South West Coast of Canada...so it can get soggy around here!! For older parts that most of the blackening has worn off over time...I use tool-black and a Q-Tip...it takes a few applications...but looks great when finished!!

 

1A291E

[collector]

Has anybody mentioned dental floss?