M1942 Naval Cutlass

[paratrpr]

I recently purchased a WW2 naval cutlass from a reputable dealer. I have done some research and see it is patterned after a Dutch model and the U.S. M1917 cutlass. There are no markings on the blade, it is blued, bakelite grips, fullered original scabbard and drag. It seems to be original. If anyone has info on the sword, it's use, and value, you have my attention. According my research it was the last non-ceremonial swords issued in the U.S. military and there are accounts of it being used in combat both in WW2 and Korea. There are photos of Marines going ashore at Guadalcanal with them tucked in they're back packs, after grabbing the surplus swords from aboard ship before heading to the island, due to the fact that the Navy hadn't used them for boarding since the 19th century and they were better put to use as machete-hand to hand weapon in the waiting jungles.

 

I apologize for lack of photo. My second post, I'll figure out the system include some in the future.

 

Thanks for any and all replies.

[gunbarrel]

Here is a link to a photo in Frank Trzaska's website:

 

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/Klewang1.jpg

[gunbarrel]

More info:

 

http://arms2armor.com/Swords/1917var1.htm

 

http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/cutlass.html

[gunbarrel]

Here is a photo of a GI in Guadalcanal in 1943 with a theater knife made from a cutlass/klewang:

 

[gunbarrel]

Now, for a bit of discussion. I don't recall seeing being referred to as a M1942, but as a M1941 and here is what Frank Trzaska had to say about that on a post about six years ago:

 

The M1941 designation is not a US designation, it is Dutch. Most of the confusion comes from this tiny fact. The M1941 is not a variation of the M1917 used by the US, it is a variation of the M1911 Dutch model klewang. This model, the M1941 was made by MILSCO in the US and also by Vince. Not the Vince Forge that made the deep diving Navy MkV but the Vince Fencing Company. Models can be found of both which are M1941 Dutch standard models, not US M1917 variations. These items were supplied to the Netherlands well after the war as well. It was redesigned in 1947 slightly and made up until 1960 when the M1941 Dutch Klewang was obsoleted and replaced with a new Dutch model.

 

Here is proof that MILSCO made them:

 

http://usmilitaryknives.com/milsco.htm

 

HTH.

[Tony V]

I have one of the Dutch Klewang cutlass and found some information that may be of interest to you. Try this one. Hope it helps some.

 

 

http://arms2armor.com/Swords/1917var1.htm

 

Tony

[paratrpr]

So the M1941 is a Dutch designation, but there was U.S. manufacture and issue? What was their U.S. Naval designation? And if there was one; isn't that in-fact a U.S. designation? I'm confused. Thanks

[gunbarrel]

So the M1941 is a Dutch designation, but there was U.S. manufacture and issue? What was their U.S. Naval designation? And if there was one; isn't that in-fact a U.S. designation? I'm confused. Thanks

 

Paratrpr,

 

There is no US M1941, or M1942 cutlass; only US M1917. The US M1917 has a solid hilt cup and it's marked USN on the blade. If your cutlass doesn't meet this description, you have a Dutch Klewang.

 

According to Frank Trzaska, "Klewangs were made in the US for the Netherlands Purchasing Commission in WW II just like the Johnson rifles were. As the lands fell before much of the equipment could be made or shipped much of it was purchased by the US military for secondary use."

 

Hope this clears it up for you.

[Sjef]

Hello paratrpr,

 

I am a collector of Dutch Klewangs.

See My collection so far with several MILSCOs a M1940 Netherlands East Indies Klewang with wooden grip and at the bottom a pre-war HEMBRUG.

 

 

The one you have "no markings on the blade and bakelite grips" is a typical m1940 Netherlands East Indies Klewang, made in the Netherlands East Indies, instead of at the Artillery Works (HEMBRUG) in the German occupied Netherlands.

These M1940s were made of pre war spare parts and localy (NEI) made parts. Locally made blades are from different steel and steel structure and were not stamped Grips were often produced from bakelite rather than (more expensive) carved wood.

The USN M1917 cutlass is indeed modelled after the Dutch Klewang, which (after several pre-patterns) appeared in its true first pattern in 1898 as the Sabel Marechaussee (O.I. M1898) or N.E.I. Marechaussee sword (M1898).

 

They were originally designed for very close combat in the jungle of Atjeh (and as such used by my grandfather in the 1930s )

The ones without the metal basket the US soldiers in the pictures carry are so called Klewang Heiho. These were sawed of by the Japanese and given to the Heihos (young Indonesian volunteer troops).

 

If you are interested in the klewang you should read KLEWANG by J. P. Puype and R. J. de Stürler Boekwijt http://www.eburon.nl/klewang?language_code=en

If you have any additional questions or you would like to sell on your klewang to invest your money in a USN M1917 cutlass, please let me know.

[Sjef]

One of these days I will scan some pics of US soldiers using (Heiho) Klewangs

[gunbarrel]

One of these days I will scan some pics of US soldiers using (Heiho) Klewangs

 

Sjef,

 

Excellent information! :thumbsup: We'd love to see thos pictures. Here is one that I forgot to post. It was taken in Papua, New Guinea, in 1943. Enjoy!

 

[tsellati]

Sjef,

 

Excellent information! :thumbsup: We'd love to see thos pictures. Here is one that I forgot to post. It was taken in Papua, New Guinea, in 1943. Enjoy!

 

 

That is a really neat photo! Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:. I am becoming more and more convinced I would like to add one of these sabers to my collection. Any ideas on current price ranges?

 

Tim

[Garandomatic]

One of the WWII US Navy books (a part of the set of books that sell for 75$ each) shows a sailor in dungarees, with a brodie helmet, M1911, leggings and one of these cutlasses advancing down a gang plank. Wicked picture!

[Sjef]

That is a really neat photo! Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:. I am becoming more and more convinced I would like to add one of these sabers to my collection. Any ideas on current price ranges?

 

Tim

 

As with most items prices vary quite a bit. MILSCOs are relatively cheap because the are more abundant and have a less exiting history. A mint version with original scabbard should cost about $350.

A VINCE would be much more expensive because they are very rare, and would go for about $1000.

Mint Dutch police, Dutch army and Dutch Marechausee (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE KORPS MARECHAUSEES OF THE KNIL!!) versions go for about $600 to $700 (if numbers on scabbard and klewang are the same).

M1940 NEI Klewangs are a little difficult because they vary quite a bit and by definition are constructed of parts of different models. But when in mint condition are definitely more expensive than a MILSCO.

The pre war HEMBRUG and Solingen versions used by the KNIL are over $1000 and go up depending on if they can be traced back to the elite Korps Marechaussees operating in Atjeh from 1896 until 1942, with European officer and native personnel mainly from Ambon and Menado(see pictures). I don’t know about the shortened Klewang Heiho, but a expect they would go for a few hundred dollars.

 

Korps Marechaussees

 

 

[Sjef]

Here is an example of a shortened, so called Klewang Heiho like the one carried by the soldier the full color photo in gunbarrel’s post. (Which is beautiful by the way!! Where do you find these!? :w00t: )

 

 

These are Dutch shock troops with a Klewang Heiho in the NEI in 1947 or 1948. Wearing US HBT camo and a HBT utility cap, which was quite common back than.

 

 

 

The belt one of the soldiers is wearing in the black and white picture in gunbarrel’s other post is a Japanese pistol belt.

This one I inherited from my grandfather who got it as war booty in the NEI and I am wearing it in my trousers for almost 25 years now.

 

[Still-A-Marine]

There are photos of Marines going ashore at Guadalcanal with them tucked in they're back packs, after grabbing the surplus swords from aboard ship before heading to the island, due to the fact that the Navy hadn't used them for boarding since the 19th century and they were better put to use as machete-hand to hand weapon in the waiting jungles.

 

Very interesting. I had not realized that some Marines carried the M1917 cutlass on Guadalcanal. Does anyone have a copy of the photo mentioned? Bill

[gunbarrel]

Very interesting. I had not realized that some Marines carried the M1917 cutlass on Guadalcanal. Does anyone have a copy of the photo mentioned? Bill

 

Bill,

 

See my post #2.

[Sjef]

I promised you some pictures of US soldiers using the klewang, but unfortunately those pictures in my books are either the sleeping GI posted earlier by gunbarrel or Dutch infantry wearing US equipment. :ermm:

I will keep searching the internet though to find some additional pictures.

 

As for the possibilities of US personnel carrying klewangs.

 

1

If I am correct the only part of the NEI liberated by US Forces is Papua New Guinea, so klewangs coming from war booty would originally (before WWII) be the property of the KNIL (Royal Netherlands (East) Indies Army) stationed in Papua New Guinea. Those would be M1941 or earlier models, stamped on the blade either HEMBRUG, Solingen or without stamp (M1940 and M1941). This also concerns the shortened Klewang Heiho.

 

2

Another possibility would be that some M1942 MILSCO klewangs were brought by US military directly from the US. MILSCOs only reached the government of the NEI after WWII.

 

3

A third possibility is that - as paratrpr - suggested, cutlasses were taken from weapon racks aboard US Navy vessels, or klewangs (there were always a few dozen) from weapon racks aboard Dutch Navy vessels which after escaping to Australia were frequently used for the allied war effort.

 

 

 

Cutlasses are easy to distinguish from klewangs. Cutlasses have diamond shaped relief on the grips and a closed basket. Klewangs have either smooth grips or ribbed grips (very early models) and an open basket.

[Still-A-Marine]

Bill,

 

See my post #2.

 

Gunbarrel,

 

In the picture in post #2; is that a US M1917 Navel Cutlass or a Dutch Klewang? I am trying to figure out if "some of the Marines" on Guadalcanal used the M1917, the Klewang or both? I'm trying to determine if one or both need to be added to my list of desired items of Marine edged weapons.

 

Bill

[Sjef]

Gunbarrel,

 

In the picture in post #2; is that a US M1917 Navel Cutlass or a Dutch Klewang? I am trying to figure out if "some of the Marines" on Guadalcanal used the M1917, the Klewang or both? I'm trying to determine if one or both need to be added to my list of desired items of Marine edged weapons.

 

Bill

 

If you mean the colour picture in gunbarrel's post #3, I am pretty sure that is a M1940 NEI Klewang. It appears to have smooth (instead of relief) black bakelite grips. The grips appear to be rounded (instead of square which is typical of for the M1917 Cutlass). Also no stamp can be seen on the blade. An M1940 Klewang would have no stamp at all or an almost invisible inspection stamp on that side of the blade, whereas a Cutlass would have a large USN stamp on that side, which would probably be visible in the picture.

[gunbarrel]

Gunbarrel,

 

In the picture in post #2; is that a US M1917 Navel Cutlass or a Dutch Klewang? I am trying to figure out if "some of the Marines" on Guadalcanal used the M1917, the Klewang or both? I'm trying to determine if one or both need to be added to my list of desired items of Marine edged weapons.

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

It's hard to say, but it looks like the handguard is perforated; so, that would make it a Klewang...

[gunbarrel]

If you mean the colour picture in gunbarrel's post #3, I am pretty sure that is a M1940 NEI Klewang.

 

Sjef,

 

I think Bill was talking about the B&W photo linked on post #2...

[gunbarrel]

2

Another possibility would be that some M1942 MILSCO klewangs were brought by US military directly from the US. MILSCOs only reached the government of the NEI after WWII.

 

Sjef,

 

Anything is possible during war time, but Milsco's drawings definitely indentified it as "Sabre - Klewang Model / Netherlands Govt." Click on the link below to check it out:

 

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/milsco.htm

[gunbarrel]

Bill,

 

It's hard to say, but it looks like the handguard is perforated; so, that would make it a Klewang...

 

Bill,

 

I just noticed that the one laying on the ground next to the guy is definitely a Klewang. :thumbsup: Look at the handguard.

[Still-A-Marine]

Bill,

 

I just noticed that the one laying on the ground next to the guy is definitely a Klewang. :thumbsup: Look at the handguard.

 

 

Thanks Gunbarrel. I was thinking the same. So as it stands I don't think anybody can say US Marines used the M1917 cutlass in WW2. Unless somebody else has something different to offer?

 

Bill