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Gilt EGA Collar Discs


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This was an interesting pic that was on Ebay recently. The gilt USMC collar discs were discussed recently with some folks opinion that they never existed. The linked photo may prove otherwise.

 

Although the pic is a little fuzzy, they do look like an EGA disc. If they were polished bronze discs, they would look a little different than the gilt cap EGA.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

 

Anyone here happen to pick up this photo?

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***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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Yes, and will add there has never been a documented, with provenance set of gold and or gilded set of collar discs ever shown or revealed. There is no evidence coming from QM records or written proof (jewelers sales slip or the like) of private purchase, to wit, these ever existed.

 

Marine's have been long known to be able to bring out a shine in anything. During most of my career the word anodized was a foreign term. Everything in site got polished or spit shined, esp in the case of our seagoing brothers. This photo simply shows an enterprising young WW1 era Corporal who decided to use his jeweller rouge and polish up his bronze emblems for a photograph in his Dress Blues. Nice period photo of whats appears to be a reunion of sorts think.gif

There are all sorts of folks in different dress etc. Look carefully at all the photo's, for shadow detail and contrast, those discs just do not hold up to the suggestion.


The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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I agree with Darrell completely. While it is very unusual to see discs being worn on the dress uniform during that period, my bet is this Marine spent a nignt and a day polishing a set of service discs into a high shine for Victory photos. As for the discs matching the cover emblem? Every once in awhile, an M1914-22 service cover or hat emblem can be found that has obviously been polished to a high shine at one point in it's life. I've got one in my collection and if anyone wants to see it, I'll try and get some decent photos. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that maybe some of the Marines, such as this one, polished a bronze service emblem to match the polished bronze discs.

 

Gary

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I thought it was a great photo also. Wish it was a little clearer so that I could see the details, but I understand that good photos would have affected the auction bidding in a negative sense also. The discs caught my eye. After the previous discussion on the subject, I believed the set I have to be reproductions until solid provenance is had. I've seen EGA discs and cap badges that have no blackening on them also. Makes sense that they would have been polished for such a purpose. I also wondered about how much of the insignia in the photos on the uniforms were post war additions.

 

Yeap, my DI was a stickler about brass and spitshine. Good gravy, we even polished the brass floor drains. It shows a different level of pride in being a Marine when you polish your own brass and spitshine your shoes. He beat "Attention to Detail" into our heads. I have to admit that out of everything that I have learned to this day, that is the best piece of advice that I recieved anywhere. My latest boss was a Marine and I told the fellas to get out the brasso as he would probabily want the place glowing. They laughed.... I was right...

 

I'll have to dig out the photos of the discs and post them in the reproduction section.

***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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All: A friend won the photo so I am hoping I'll be able to examine it and post some detailed pictures....

Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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Teufelhunde, never say never, my friend. Check this out, stone cold 100% original and 1919 dated.

 

***COLLECTOR NOTE***

All collectors should note that the individual who initially started this post has been banned and his posts are now being reviewed for authenticity.

 

Our main interest at USMF is making sure collectors are aware and can learn about period pieces. And, having non-original pieces as guides does a disservice to all. The administration encourages members having detailed information regarding the item being a fake, reproduction, and/or put together to come forward and post it here or in other threads.

 

For more information regarding the user “DevilDan1900” and the cause for this review, please see below link:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=15227

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The unit patch has the "V" made out of purple material to also designate a MG unit. The letters are actually applied to the discs.

 

***COLLECTOR NOTE***

All collectors should note that the individual who initially started this post has been banned and his posts are now being reviewed for authenticity.

 

Our main interest at USMF is making sure collectors are aware and can learn about period pieces. And, having non-original pieces as guides does a disservice to all. The administration encourages members having detailed information regarding the item being a fake, reproduction, and/or put together to come forward and post it here or in other threads.

 

For more information regarding the user “DevilDan1900” and the cause for this review, please see below link:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=15227

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Dirk,

 

Sorry you weren't able to snag this photo, but I spotted what I'm sure you're saving your money for. Good luck!! Looking forward to seeing some close ups in this photo if you get a chance to look at it.

 

[/b] Schnicklfritz - I would love to see the gilted discs you speak of, just to see how they're made.

 

Gary

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DevilDan,

 

As long as you're happy with those discs, that's all that counts! I think we were talking about the gilted discs that actually closely resemble WWI discs, not these. Can you pull them off the blouse and show the reverses for the guys here.

 

Shouldn't be hard to track down a 5th Bde Marine with a Navy Cross, considering they never saw the beast during WWI. You sure you want to stick with 100% stone cold original? Does the blouse have a name?

 

Gary

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Hi Gary,

For a quick reference, they were posted on the Wehrmacht Awards forum a while back. I believe some people here on the forum weighed in on this posting also. Here's the link:

 

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...llar+discs+gilt

 

What looks to be bubbling on the continents is actually a texture to the disc.

 

I've been meaning to take better pics of these and many other things for a long while. Getting time to do it has been the big factor.

***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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Gary,

The uniform actually isn't one I have in my collection. I encountered these photos on the web some time ago and saved them, as I thought it an interesting piece, especially recalling the debate about gilt discs. So I guess I shouldn't have blurted out "100% original," I was just quoting the owner, oops. :blink: Now that I look at it, I would definately wager that the ribbons were added to the uniform, but aside from that, what is your feelings on this uniform, just for reference?

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DeviDan,

 

My guess is if you take everything from the top of the chevrons up, including the ribbons, 5th Bde patch and discs and pull it off, you'd probably have an original blouse, but the problem with someone dicking around with adding stuff to enhance value for sale on eBay or elsewhere makes the whole thing suspect. To tell you the truth, when I saw those MG discs, they made me giggle because they're not even close to anything known to exist, even in service discs. Pure fantasy!

 

Gary

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Confucious say "Open mouth, insert foot." :D I would be willing to agree, about the patch especially. One tip off, you can definately see the difference in sewing patterns between the original cross stitch on the chevrons and the unit patch on the shoulder for starters.

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Gary,

 

I agree, the disks are fantasy pieces, and the patch is a fake. Ribbons are probably added too. Wound stripes and OSS are different, so also probably added. Otherwise, it looks like a decent corporal's coat.

 

I have a similar set of blues with disks where the disks have obiously been polished. But mine is without the SSI, ribbon and wound chevrons. Mine is also un-named. I just picked it up because it is neat with the collar disks on the blue blouse.

 

 

Chris

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Marc,

 

I do remember those discs and still feel the same way about them. While they are very nice looking, they just aren't anything that has been documented as existing, through photos or groupings. As Kurt A. stated in the other thread, it's just better if we stay away from exotic or sexy insignia without documentation or attribution as being something known to exist because there are some very good craftsmen out there today that can reproduce anything and in some cases, even embellish with gilding. Because some of the standard bronze WWI Marine service discs have been reproduced exactly and I mean exactly, I decided years ago not to add a set to my collection unless it was attributed to a Marine and in the hands of a very trusted friend or collector. I had just about given up hope and figured I'd go the rest of my life without a set of discs, until late last year when I did a trade with a very trusted, close friend for a pair. I guess it's just in my nature to be skeptical and want proof of originality on very popular insignia like WWI Marine discs or maybe 1930-37 Gooney or Droop Wing emblems and it would be super to learn that Gaunt did produce these in gilt in small quantities, but Gaunt was known for marking their USMC insignia back then with "Made In England," so why not mark their discs as well? I can see where you were at in your thoughts with the photo, for that is a great shot of him wearing discs on the blues, but I think Darrell made the right call with polished service discs. That was my exact thought too.

 

s/f, Gary

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Hey Dan... I seldom say never, but in this case never! I can share with all some insight as to the likely source these (well at least the MG types, who knows were all the rest have originated crying.gif ) My Marine Corps "daddy" and I became dear friends after his retirement. And this old grizzled 3 war vet could really crank up the stories and put away the beer. On one of these occasions he shared with me stories about his fathers service in WW1. That lead to him showing me some memorabilia he had kept of his father's. In one box were several items his father had acquired from vet's reunions and such. It was all very interesting, to see these various ww1 badges, reunion ribbons, association pins, etc. I suppose in reflection I was impressed with not only the quality of was I was seeing but how all these were kept, as in such a manner that one would be able to identify readily from what event the item came from... a literal charm box of various WW1 Marine reunion history.

 

Like all of us, from time to time we see such badges, pins and reunion ribbons surface on epay and each time it brings me back to that afternoon we sat at that kitchen table sorting thru those items. When starting my EGA collecting interests some five years ago, one of these MG discs showed up on epay... being sold as an original period collar disc. I could not believe it :blink: I instantly recalled looking at the card with the reunion presentation discs on it. Now nearly 40 years later I cannot recall what was typed and manufactures stamp was on the card. BUT, I can assure you those discs, I held, came out of an association reunion.

 

So as we approach the century mark on these discs, there are quite literally more copies out there than originals and the numbers of copies are growing each year. So like Gary, I will likely never acquire a set of originals. And as he said throughout his post, until such time as I might come across a uniform from a relative or family that is literally being pulled from an attic in front of my eyes... well you know the rest. My final thought of this long winded post... do any of us know or can any accounting of the dies made in Europe or the dies for the reunion discs be made?


The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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After the last discussion on the WA forum, I do believe that the discs I have are indeed reproductions.

 

This discussion has brought to my mind that collecting AEF USMC items isn't all that simple. Regardless of whether you have a helmet, uniform or insignia, you can break down WW1 USMC items into "proper" AEF items and post WW1 reunion items and probabily further than that. The lack of reference material makes it difficult indeed.

 

I did not know that they produced collar discs for veteran reunions. That would be an interesting box to go through!

 

I browsed the new EGA section here on the forum today. It looks like it will be a great help and I just want to say "Thanks very Much!" to the people who are putting their time in on the endevour. It looks GREAT!!!!!!!!

 

Cheers!

Marc

***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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Chris,

 

Sorry! I missed this post last night. Do you have your blues blouse in the uniform section or have images you can share? What kind of date? Are the collars punched or eyeleted? Even though I've given up my USMC uniform collecting as too bulky to collect or store and have parted ways with my closetful, I never get tired of looking at originals others have found.

 

Gary

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Chris,

 

Sorry! I missed this post last night. Do you have your blues blouse in the uniform section or have images you can share? What kind of date? Are the collars punched or eyeleted? Even though I've given up my USMC uniform collecting as too bulky to collect or store and have parted ways with my closetful, I never get tired of looking at originals others have found.

 

Gary

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http://www.grunt.com/scuttlebutt/corps-sto...o/usmceagle.asp

 

Here's a link to an article. I'm pulling the quote from it below:

 

"When Assistant Secretary of the Navy, Franklin D. Roosevelt visited France in 1918, he authorized Marine enlisted men to wear discs depicting the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. These collar insignia were prescribed for enlisted uniforms on 5 August 1918 when Brig. GEN. W.C. Neville, USMC, authorized the 4th Brigade to procure 1" round discs to distinguish Marines from other services. The only difference in the Marine's disc was the addition of the EGA, as opposed to the Army's "U.S." and unit or rate designation. These initial disks were bronze for the service collar. A short production run of gilt devices was made for dress collars. Only Marines serving in France and Germany wore these during the remainder of 1918 and 1919."

 

Does anyone know the person who wrote this article, Tom McLeod? Or Steve Orgill and Rocklin Lyons? It would be interesting to see if they may have documentation for this. I'll see if I can't get ahold of them if possible.

***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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Marc,

 

Yes it would be nice if they had documentation! Believe me, I've looked! Steven Orgel has a set of supposed French made PIN BACK gilt discs in his small EGA reference in the back of Jim Moran's US Marine Uniforms, 1912-1940 book. I'm not sure if Tom McLeod is using Orgel's reference to these French made discs only or if he has other information on a small production run? I'm assuming he's going by Orgel's reference to them. Even with that said, show me the proof? Show me a pair of gilt discs, either screw back or pin back that were in a grouping that has surfaced over the years or even a single in the Marine Corps museum from the family of a Marine and I'll bite. Common sense tells us the reason Marines wanted their own service discs was because they were wearing Army uniforms, Army equipment and in general, looked like Army soldiers during WWI. That's why we see the service EGA's popping up on their helmets in photographs during this period and after the glories of Belleau Wood, we see them wearing their own collar discs. With the dress blue uniform, there was no mistaking a Marine for a soldier, so I don't believe it was really considered wearing gilt discs by the greater majority of Marines at that time. Yes, maybe some Marines polished service discs for wear on their blues, but it appears to be a post war veteran's photo. And then again, we're all assuming those are EGA discs in the photo. Maybe the Marine really took pride in the fact he was a machinegunner or mule skinner and wore polished Army discs to show his pride? It wouldn't be the first time to find Army Infantry/Company discs in a WWI Marine grouping. Dirk just showed me a dynamite photo of a Marine with EGA on his kepi and officer quality U.S. emblems on his collar. All I can tell you is, both screw back and pin back discs for both Marines and Army have been accurately reproduced for years now, so just a photo of a set in a reference or the suggestion by someone on the net stating they existed isn't exactly what I'm looking for. Show me the proof! If you find that they did exist, I'll be the first to jump for joy, apologize, and give you a hug, brother!

 

I noticed Tom McLeod has his credentials as 1st Mar Div Historian and address below the article. I know how badly you want your discs to be real, so maybe you can get further with your research by contacting him and finding out his source on the gilt disc production run he mentions?

 

s/f,

Gary

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Hi,

I was actually putzing around on the net looking for a copy of The Eagle, Globe and Anchor when I ran across this article. Thought maybe someone might know these folks. My contact with the people in the hobby is very limited due to living in BFE and getting time off to get to shows. Maybe it's time to put the old horse down. Hope I don't sound like I'm despairately trying to justify them as real, far from it. The folks that have weighed in here like you and Darrell are alot more experienced in the hobby than I am and I truely appreciate the wisdom. I seem to keep bumping into references on them lately. I too would like to see documented proof. Until then, I say the pair I have are repros.

Cheers!

Marc

 

See what I mean.... they won't leave me alone!!

 

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ht=collar+discs

***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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Chris... great uniform... thanks for sharing. Found another set of pic's of reunion discs on my machine at office. Will go in and post tomorrow. Great uniform


The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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