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China Marine, HELP PLEASE


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I purchased this jacket off of E-Bay a little while back for a reasonable price with no idea of what I now have. The bigger question is what kind/type SSI would have possibly been attached to the uniform. On the Rt. sleeve approximately 6 inches down from the shoulder/arm seam is a 3in. circular stitching with the material that was under the patch that has no fading as does the overall jacket. There are 2 areas on the Lt. sleeve that are identical in diameter with the exception being one "patch" that was at the upper portion of the shoulder/sleeve area as usually seen on any patched jacket with SSI. There is also another same sized ghost of the same diameter patch approx. 6 inches below the shoulder/sleeve seem that duplicates the ghost on the Rt. sleeve. The SSI were machine sewn as indicated in the photos. There are obvious pin marks where collar insignia would have been applied approx. 1.5 inches behind the grommeted holes for the EGA.

 

This is what I know so far:

 

Erdman, William Lewis

USMC San Francisco, Calif. Nov. 23/15 Born Dayton, Ohio Dec.11/87 - Prior Service 8 yrs, USMC: 38th Co. Peking China April 6, 1917. Disc. Sept 13/177 to accept Comm. Char. Excellent. 2nt Lt. (Temp) Sept. 13/17. Attached to Peking China Sept 13/17: Mare Island Calif. Nov. 16/17. 1st. Lt. (Temp) Oct 3/17: Capt. (Temp) Aug 28.18: MGun (Temp) Aug 27/19; 2nd Lt. (Temp) Oct. 17/19; MGun Co. Still in service . File No 72405

 

This had to be a gorgeous jacket at one time. Any Help would be greatly appreciated. Muster rolls have him in China for several deployments.

 

Thanks for the help, Dennis

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142115.jpg

 

Collar

 

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"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142296.jpg

 

post-3422-1263142337.jpg

 

Label in Jacket

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142399.jpg

 

Initials in Rt. Sleeve

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142621.jpg

 

Stitching Rt. Sleeve

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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Stitching Line in Rt. Sleeve

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142690.jpg

 

post-3422-1263142720.jpg

 

Lt. Sleeve

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142793.jpg

 

Lt. Sleeve SSI "Shadow"

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142856.jpg

 

Rt. Sleeve "SSI Shadow"

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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post-3422-1263142904.jpg

 

Again, any information will be appreciated,

 

DJ

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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I purchased this jacket off of E-Bay a little while back for a reasonable price with no idea of what I now have. The bigger question is what kind/type SSI would have possibly been attached to the uniform. On the Rt. sleeve approximately 6 inches down from the shoulder/arm seam is a 3in. circular stitching with the material that was under the patch that has no fading as does the overall jacket. There are 2 areas on the Lt. sleeve that are identical in diameter with the exception being one "patch" that was at the upper portion of the shoulder/sleeve area as usually seen on any patched jacket with SSI. There is also another same sized ghost of the same diameter patch approx. 6 inches below the shoulder/sleeve seem that duplicates the ghost on the Rt. sleeve. The SSI were machine sewn as indicated in the photos. There are obvious pin marks where collar insignia would have been applied approx. 1.5 inches behind the grommeted holes for the EGA.

 

This is what I know so far:

 

Erdman, William Lewis

USMC San Francisco, Calif. Nov. 23/15 Born Dayton, Ohio Dec.11/87 - Prior Service 8 yrs, USMC: 38th Co. Peking China April 6, 1917. Disc. Sept 13/177 to accept Comm. Char. Excellent. 2nt Lt. (Temp) Sept. 13/17. Attached to Peking China Sept 13/17: Mare Island Calif. Nov. 16/17. 1st. Lt. (Temp) Oct 3/17: Capt. (Temp) Aug 28.18: MGun (Temp) Aug 27/19; 2nd Lt. (Temp) Oct. 17/19; MGun Co. Still in service . File No 72405

 

This had to be a gorgeous jacket at one time. Any Help would be greatly appreciated. Muster rolls have him in China for several deployments.

 

Thanks for the help, Dennis

post-3422-1263141683.jpg

 

post-3422-1263141697.jpgpost-3422-1263141711.jpg

 

 

I love that medal! Very unique, and interesting. I can't wait to see what your research leads to. Congrats on the fantastic find!

G

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

OMSA member #7423

US Army Historical Foundation Charter Member

US Army Brotherhood of Tankers member

American Association For State and Local History

Southeasren Museums Conference

Southeastern Registrars Association

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My guess is an early 1920s era enlisted Coast Artillery jacket to which someone has "associated" the USMC items (including the buttons). The SSI was probably an oversize, octagonal Hawaii Garrison patch, and the circular patches were most likely Coast Artillery specialty marks and ranks. The pin marks on the collar would have been for early DIs.

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DJ,

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the more I look at this, the more I think this was just a pure fantasy.

 

- The dog tag looks like it has been brushed by a wire-wheel (to artificially age it?)

- The ribbon on the medal is modern with a re-enforced edge (original ribbon would have been piquoted)

- The engraving on the medal looks as though it was done with a dot-matrix engraver (not what I would expect in 1930s)

- The initials in the sleeve look to me like they were done in "sharpie"

 

This is the downside of the muster rolls being available. A quick-buck artist can hop-up an item and it even researches out...

 

You said you got it very reasonably, can you possibly get your money back?

 

Again, sorry about the bad news, and these are just my opinions, but I really don't like this combination.

 

Chris

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Early USMC dog tag should have enlistment date not birth date. I believe the whole thing is a put together.

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A1C Matthew Seidler, Delta Company, 466th EOD killed in action. 05 Jan 12 at 1600L while conducting mounted route clearance patrols in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. He turned 24 two days before his death. Cousin, Soldier, Hero.

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Agree with what everyone has noted above. The engraving on the medal appears to be done with one of those vibrating engravers, I can remember my father using one to mark his TV. Figure something from the 1930's would be hand engraved, probably to a pretty high standard as well. The ghost does appear to be a Hawaii Department SSI. I hope you can get your money back, even the sum of the parts on this one smell IMHO.

 

John

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for all the verification. I never cry over spilt milk and I have been taken more than a couple of times for sure. Check out this e-bay auction from the seller who sold me this group. Ohio, polished dog tag, ect. I don't know this guy personally but he won't be a seller of any more goods to me. Current E-bay auction 02/21/10 no. 390158026271

 

Looks too fishy !

 

Dennis Jackson

"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

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both tags seems shifty to me, I saw that group, as well

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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  • 6 years later...

Well guys, here's how cool the internet is as an ancestry search engine...this tunic belonged to my grandfather, Major William Lewis Erdman, (ret'd, deceased). My step-grandmother disposed on his military footlocker before I could retrieve it when I was at college back in the early 70's. I was so pissed about it I never talked to her again...Based on Mr Jackson's OP's date, some 40 odd years later it shows up on eBay and after another six years my whimsical google search of my grandfather's name finds this thread. I about fell out of my chair...

 

He was career USMC 1st generation German immigrant whose parents came from the old Duchy of Pomerania in northern Germany. He spent much of his later career at Mare Island in Vallejo CA, possibly as a gunnery instructor and in charge of a company of marines but certainly a Major at the time of his retirement. As well as China, He was also stationed in the Philippines and Haiti. His sons Paul Lewis and George William were both in the military (USA). My uncle was killed in the early 60's and my father Col. George William Erdman Sr. (USA) was killed two weeks before his retirement in 1973. My father served with distinction throughout WWII (Normandy, Belgium, Germany) and was the recipient of at least two unit citations, a Bronze Star (Normandy), Purple Heart (Belgium), Legion of Merit (2x Tours VietNam), the Joint Services Commendation Medal (SHAPE) and on his death received an oak leaf cluster for his Legion of Merit.

 

I can tell you all that both the dog tag and the medal are original issues as I held them as a kid. He gave me both his Sam Browne belt and his dress sword shortly before his death at the Yountville Veterans Hospital outside Napa California. I'll attach a photo of his engraved dress sword shortly but work beckons at the moment.

 

My sons are ecstatic about this...I would dearly love to obtain the tunic back into the family. Dennis I would certainly reimburse you for your purchasing cost and shipping expenses just to have them back in the family.

 

Yours gratefully,

 

George William Erdman Jr.

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I can tell you all that both the dog tag and the medal are original issues as I held them as a kid. He gave me both his Sam Browne belt and his dress sword shortly before his death at the Yountville Veterans Hospital outside Napa California. I'll attach a photo of his engraved dress sword shortly but work beckons at the moment.

 

Sorry guys I have to recant the China Medal originality, I simply remember being shown and holding several of his medals as we were going through his locker one day...I double checked the medal as displayed here against the China Relief & Campaign Medal in Wiki and it certainly is not the medal as shown. As to the dog tag here's the his National Cemetery registration of his grave site in Golden Gate Nat'l Cemetery...please note the DOB.

 

http://grave-records.mooseroots.com/d/f/William-Erdman,

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The "medal" does look like a Chinese dragon coin with the reverse side ground down and "engraved". I would agree with the 2010 comments above about the engraving style. Would very much like to see the Mamaluke in your possession if you can post it here.

Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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The "medal" does look like a Chinese dragon coin with the reverse side ground down and "engraved". I would agree with the 2010 comments above about the engraving style. Would very much like to see the Mamaluke in your possession if you can post it here.

 

 

Thanks Dirk,

 

I guess being unfamiliar with the specifics of uniform militaria I was just so blown out that whomever sold the group to Belleauwood (Dennis) somehow associated it with my grandfathers name...I have to believe something in the group was indeed from my grandfather's locker for that association to be made. Really makes me wonder how that all came to pass...I'd love to get in touch with the seller and ask a few questions. The fact that the eBay seller was from Ohio (if I recall correctly) is also a trip simply because the Major was born in Dayton, Ohio...Coincidence? Who knows...

 

As to the medal itself I do recall that one of several my grandfather showed me did have a yellow ribbon but I can't recall any stripes on it or the actual medallion itself. Appreciate the education on that.

 

I promise to get a picture of his "Mameluke" (new word for me!) posted as soon as I have time.

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  • 4 years later...

Well four years have passed since I last posted. I'm not sure how many of the original contributors to this post are still members or continue to contribute. As Covid19 has been the "rage" around the US I recently decided to declutter the homestead and simply lighten the possessions load (If any of you haven't tried the 5S method its pretty phenomenal). As part of those efforts I recently opened a closet that had been for the most part unused. Inside I rediscovered the mameluke belonging to Major William Lewis Erdman, my Grandfather,  and an 1898 30-40 KRAG which shoots the 30 Army that I inherited from my father, and one of my grandfather's sons, Col. George W. Erdman, USA, deceased. Its likely the Krag was given to my grandfather by the brother of my grandmother Jess Plambeck. His name being George Plambeck, my name sake. My middle name, William, is to honor my grandfather. As a "Jr"  I carry all three names proudly. George Plambeck was also USMC and from what i can discern older than my grandfather. I suspect he was largely the reason my grandfather joined the Marines. It's interesting to note that my grandfather, an orphan from Ohio moved to Iowa to live and work on the Plambeck farm following the death of his parents (flu pandemic?). 

 

The discovery brought back the forgotten memory of this post and miraculously I had booked marked the thread. So...true to my work here are pictures of my Granfather's Mameluke and the 30-40 Krag. 

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Wonderful heirlooms

 

About 2/3 of us in this thread are still around

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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