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INK STAMP WARNING!!


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Just a thought...

the guy clearly has a lot of these stamps, and a source for producing more.

 

He sells them on eBay, at least you and keep an eye on how many are sold and possibly even to whom. IF (they probably won't) they kick him off eBay, then he sells these a few at a time to people at shows, etc, they get around, and eventually just as much damage is done, only not too many people know about it. It sure as heck isn't going to stop him from selling them.

 

There was a guy who used to sell Waffenamt stamps for clothing and guns and such, along with numbering stamps. I guess he got "outed" when he started advertising in the shotgun news, but for years and years before that, he would sell them in small batches at shows and stuff. That's around the time you started seeing SS runes on k98 rifles and stuff. Same with the carbine stock markings and whatnot the other forum member mentioned above.

 

Just saying, might not be ideal but at least if he's on eBay, it's pretty visible, like easy-green. Then again, what you really need to watch out for is the people who buy the stamps and mark stuff up moreso than the guy selling the stamps, it'd still be easier to cross-check.

 

shrapneldude,

 

I see your point about potential trackability on Ebay, but with the power of the internet, and the increased buyer identity protection on Ebay, I'd much rather see someone limited to selling these at gun shows than market them through a global selling tool. There's probably not much we can do about these stamps, except to educate collectors, and to express displeasure with those who may choose to deceive others by using them. I will say that, in my opinion, complacency is not an option, and we should do more to try to stop such efforts, even if it seems like a "boiling the ocean" undertaking.

 

One way to attempt to have a small amount of control and organization around the markings of reproduction items is through our collector organizations. Most folks on this board do not know me, but I currently serve as President of The American Thompson Association. (TATA) Our main interest is around the history, collection, and promotion of the safe operation of legal Thompson Submachine Guns, and their many accessories. In August, our board of directors adopted a Thompson reproduction item marking standard in response to a member inquiry...the member wanted to make reproduction British Home Guard wooden cases, and inquired as to whether the organization had a standard for marking reproductions to prevent them from becoming mistaken as originals in the future. We did not have such a standard, and after a year of benchmarking and consideration, we came up with one. I have no illusions about the ability of TATA to enforce any club standard outside of our organization, however I believe the standard is a step in the right direction, and should be considered by other, similar collector organizations. We may effect some decisions, and help avoid future collector confusion through such efforts.

 

Here is the standard we adopted:

 

The following reproduction marking standard was adopted by a unanimous vote of the Board of Directors of The American Thompson Association on 8/14/09 at the annual Show and Shoot in Granville, Ohio, and is added to the bylaws of the organization as of that date.

 

Reproduction Item Marking Standard:

 

The American Thompson Association is a group of collectors dedicated to preserving the history, collecting, and promoting the safe operation of legal Thompson Submachine Guns. The club has a responsibility to future collectors, and recognizes that many artifacts and accessories associated with the Thompson are reproduced, or have been reproduced in the past. As a result, TATA assumes a stewardship role for future collectors, who, upon encountering reproduction items now and in the future, may not be able to reasonably determine their originality. This can have the effect of reducing collector value of original specimens, as well as present unintended (or intended) ethical issues among the Thompson collector community.

 

The American Thompson Association adopts a standard consisting of marking any new Thompson Submachine Gun reproduction items with a name or other distinguishable identifying mark that indicate the manufacturing entity, and at least the year of manufacture. The marking should be easily visible, and made in a manner that the item can be readily identifiable as a reproduction, such as die stamping in metal, firmly stamped wood markings, readily accessible publisher marks inside the front page of a paper item, permanently painted markings on canvas material, or other reasonable and permanent marking method. (An example for stock markings is to mark such items under the buttplate, and on top of the grip, as these are already standard methods, and will not detract cosmetically from their presentation on a Thompson.)

 

TATA members must comply to the standard, and any reproduction item made by a member after notification of the adoption of the new standard in the club newsletter should be marked according to the TATA reproduction marking standard. (Failure to do so could effect membership status)

 

Method of Introduction for Acceptance:

 

Items may be presented to the TATA Board by members or non-members (via live sample, or high resolution (300dpi or better) photo or scan that details the product effectively) for inclusion on an online list that details them for public access. (This list currently resides in a pinned post at the top of the Thompson board at Machinegunboards.com) Items are presented to the TATA Board via e-mail to the TATA President or Vice President, who will convene the board online via e-mail or telephone within 60 days of receipt of a request for inclusion. A list consisting of 3 categories of Thompson reproduction items will be maintained:

 

A. New reproduction Thompson items that conform to TATA marking standard, to include known manufacturer information.

 

B. Existing reproduction items that conform to TATA marking standard, to include known manufacturer information.

 

C. Reproduction Thompson items that do not conform to TATA marking standard, to include known manufacturer information.

 

At a later time to be determined, once greater experience has been gained with managing a marking standard, TATA will present their standard to the NRA as a potential best practice. The standard may also be introduced to other NRA affiliated collector organizations who might want to adopt a similar standard.

________________________________________________________________________________

______________________________

 

I hope to raise awareness on this issue, and feel that if we truly care about preserving the history, we should not remain complacent about these threats to the integrity of our hobby.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

www.machinegunboards.com

www.sturmgewehr.com

www.biggerhammer.net

www.firearmmanuals.com

NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association

International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

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You watch..just like all the worn carbine stocks with perfect wood stamps..there will be a boat load of fake USMC stuff showing up. :thumbdown:

Exactly what i was thinking, they've been fake stamping US weaponary for quite a while now, and i always wondered why they hadn't ventured into (and wrecked) all the field gear etc. It's really just pathetic, will totally ruin things

If you can read this, thank a teacher, and, since it's in English, thank a soldier.

- Anonymous

Dedicated to the hard core.

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Exactly what i was thinking, they've been fake stamping US weaponary for quite a while now, and i always wondered why they hadn't ventured into (and wrecked) all the field gear etc. It's really just pathetic, will totally ruin things

 

 

People are going to have to spend more time educating themselves in how original stamps should look. This joker's USMC stamp has come problems when compared with known original USMC stamps. I have been a long time TR firearms and accessories collector which unfortunately involves having to have sorted through fakes many years. In that area the only protection for the collector is educating themselves very well in their areas of interest and the day is not far in coming that US collectors will be forced to do the same.

 

I hope we never reach the point on this forum like is done on the WH forum where internet "experts" will proudly announce an item a fake then be too chickens--t to explain why its wrong for the benefit of the less experienced for fear the fakers will learn from their mistakes. Individuals such as that is why I abandoned that board several years ago. They ssem to have forgotten that fakers have access to the same collectors books and resources we all do.

 

If we older more experienced colllectors do not take the time to help educate the newer less experienced collectors we are guilty of aiding the fakers in the unethical trade they do.

donation2008.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2013.gif

 

Looking for original photos and other items from the First World War US 77th Infantry Division.

Also interested in BAR and M1917A1 BMG related items.

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Side note:

 

Does a reference book exist which documents the correct/desired/regulation rubber stamps?

HONORING FAMILY LtCol Wm Russell (1679-1757) VA Mil; Pvt Zachariah McKay (1714-97) Frederick VA Mil; BrigGen Evan Shelby, Jr (1719-94) VA Mil; Pvt Vincent Hobbs (1722-1808) Wythe VA Mil; Pvt Hugh Alexander (1724-77); Lt John R. Litton (1726-1804); Bvt BrigGen/Col Wm W. Russell (1735-93) 5th VA Rgmt; Lt James Scott (1736-1817); Capt John Murray, Sr (1747-1833); Capt John Sehorn, Sr (1748-1831) VA Mil; Pvt Corbin Lane (1750-1816) Franklin/TN Mil; Cpl Jesse D. Reynolds (1750-1836) 5th VA Rgmt; Capt. Solomon C. Litton (1751-1844); 1Lt Christopher Casey (1754-1840) SC Mil; Pvt Mark Adams (1755-1828); Pvt Randolph White (1755-1831) Bailey's Co. VA Rgmt; Capt. John R. Russell (1758-1838); Pvt Joseph T. Cooley (1767-1826) Fort Hempstead Mil; Pvt Thomas Barron (1776-1863) 1812; Capt. John Baumgardner (1787-1853) VA Mil; Pvt Joel Estep (1828-1864) Co B 5th KY Inf CSA & US; Pvt George B. Bell (1833-1910) Co C 47th IL Inf US; Cpl Daniel H. Barron (1838-1910) Co B 19th TN Rgmt Inf CSA; Capt Richard K. Kaufman (1908-1946) 7th PRG/3rd AF CCU; T-5 Vernon L. Bell (1926-95) 1802nd Spec Rgmt; PO2 Murray J. Heichman (1932-2019) HQSB/MCRD; PFC Jess Long (1934-2017) US Army; PFC Donald W. Johnson (1931-) 43rd ID HQ; A1C Keith W. Bell (1931-2011) 314th TCW; A3C Michael S. Bell (1946-) 3346th CMS; A1C Sam W. Lee (1954-2017) 2d BW; AW3 Keith J. Price (1975-) VP-10; 1Lt Matthew Wm Bell (1985-) 82nd Abn/SOC








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If we older more experienced colllectors do not take the time to help educate the newer less experienced collectors we are guilty of aiding the fakers in the unethical trade they do.

 

Tell it like it is, good buddy :thumbsup: Thank God for these forums- they are a major tool in doing just that kind of education. The only downside is that the creeps will read the forums as well (some already do), and learn what to do to correct their mistakes. :crying:

Support our troops...abandoning the War on Terror is not an affordable luxury.

I'm so old, I still call W.W.II U.S. militaria "war surplus".

 

God's blessings in the Name of our Lord Jesus- Jim Robertson

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Side note:

 

Does a reference book exist which documents the correct/desired/regulation rubber stamps?

 

Bluehawk,

 

I don't think a reference book exists dedicated solely to documenting the original markings that these stamps attempt to duplicate, however many books have partial coverage. If you are interested in markings on web gear related to the Thompson, you can take a look at a pinned post I put together on the Thompson board at the following link:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...showtopic=10090

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.om

NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association

International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

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Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if there is some way to detect modern applied stampings? Certainly modern inks must differ from the inks used on original items. UV Light, perhaps, or something similar? I know that a similar technique is sometimes applied to German Iron Cross ribbons (new ones tend to glow brightly).

Of course this wouldn't really help over ebay, but might provide a way to protect yourself at a show?

 

Durandal

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Evening fellas.

 

I'm suprised these hadn't popped up earlier. I've been watching his usmc stamps for a while and had the same thoughts as everyone else. Is there any way to detect 'fake' modern stampings? Like with cloth insignia...

 

As stupid as this may sound, the thought had passed my mind about purchasing a couple from this lousy smuck. The reason being, if you've got one, tried it on some spare canvas you've got lying around, at least you know what it looks like...I've always wanted to make my own reference book to carry with me at shows and events, with examples of original hbt cloth, fasteners & fittings etc. Then you've got the 2 to compare in front of you. It may sound silly I know, and I don't want to fund this guy believe me! But, could be one of the only ways to really tell. Anyhow, I didn't actually realize he was also offering TIPS... :o

 

Got to admit though, this stuff does depress me some days. But, it's a good job we have places like USMF and the old salts to pass on the knowledge to us young 'uns! This also seems a good time to thank everyone! With the approach of the new year I had been thinking about my year on the forum and I really cannot believe how much I have learnt. This place has the worth of a bookcase full of reference books in my opinion and in that respect, everyone on here should be darn proud of themselves. It's times like this that allow us to compile knowledge and opinion in order to keep this hobby an honest and enjoyable one! So, thanks guys.

 

And now having gotten' a tad sentimental, I'll leave it at that! :)

 

All the best,

 

Will

WWII USMC & USN - CAMOUFLAGE / CORPSMAN / PARAMARINE / MARINE RAIDER / DENIM / DECK JACKETS.

 

VIETNAM - CAMOUFLAGE / SF / 'IN-COUNTRY' ITEMS.

 

donation2010.gifdonation2011.gifdonation2012.gif

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Just smell the item, if you smell ink it has been recently added.

donation2008.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2013.gif

 

Looking for original photos and other items from the First World War US 77th Infantry Division.

Also interested in BAR and M1917A1 BMG related items.

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