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Australian made USMC TSMG ammo pouch?


Corpsmancollector

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Corpsmancollector

Came across this on eBay and wondered what other forum members thought of it.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-WW2-US-Australi...=item35a5e9f0bd

 

The pouch is very similar to the Reising mag pouch featured in Grunt Gear. The price tag is high in my opinion, but if it's definitely a legit one, how often do they come up?

 

Photos are here for reference:

 

post-5339-1261937788.jpg

post-5339-1261937815.jpg

post-5339-1261937829.jpg

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Steve Brannan

I have a M1 Carbine magazine holder with the Carr, Australia Lift The Dot fasteners, that I have had for 25 years and am sure is legit. The color of the cloth appears the same as this Reising ammo pouch.

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I had an almost identical pouch but sold it off a few years ago. Mine had the black stripe quite visible down one of the cells. The EBay posting calls it a Thompson item; why do you say Reising?

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The pouch is very similar to the Reising mag pouch featured in Grunt Gear. The price tag is high in my opinion, but if it's definitely a legit one, how often do they come up?

 

I wrote Grunt Gear so close is not "the same." My issue with this pouch is that there is British Braod Arrow acceptance on the back of it. Why would there be an English acceptnce mark on the back of a US contracted item?

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Here's mine. The magazine at far left is a Reising 12 round. The pouch is only made for Thompson 20rd mags.

MVC_119S.JPG

MVC_120S.JPG

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Jan 44 dated photo on page 211 of Tracie Hill's Thompson, the American Legend shows a Marine wearing this style pouch with 20 round Thompson magazines.

 

The lower placement of the snaps on the Ebay pouch make it a Thompson 20 round magazine pouch. As a Thompson collector would I pay $200 for that pouch, no.

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The broad arrow would indicate Government Property. The same symbol was used for prison clothing and Royal Mail items, for instance. The "U.S." may have been meant to distingusih it as paired with American-origin arms, whether the end-user was Aussie or Yank.

 

Also, it seems the broadarrow and US are two seperate stamps.

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The pouch is very similar to the Reising mag pouch featured in Grunt Gear. The price tag is high in my opinion, but if it's definitely a legit one, how often do they come up?

 

I wrote Grunt Gear so close is not "the same." My issue with this pouch is that there is British Braod Arrow acceptance on the back of it. Why would there be an English acceptance mark on the back of a US contracted item?

 

It sure looks to be Australian made. This marking isn't so much an acceptance mark, but rather the mark is a sign that it has been inspected at the factory. This marking also has the initials of the inspector. Sometimes they had a code number for the inspector. This example is stamped in typically Australian purple ink. It means that the item is has been inspected by an official and been found to be without fault.

 

It is quite logical that a reverse lend lease item such as this would have an arrow inspectors stamp.

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Charlie Flick

 

 

I wrote Grunt Gear so close is not "the same." My issue with this pouch is that there is British Broad Arrow acceptance on the back of it. Why would there be an English acceptance mark on the back of a US contracted item?


Hi Alec:

I bought "Grunt Gear" when it first came out years ago. I still refer to it on a regular basis although I am not chasing the web gear much these days. Nice work.

I don't know if these pics with help or just confuse the discussion, but I will give it a whirl. These pics were taken by me many years ago of a pouch which I understood to be a TSMG pouch made in Australia. I suppose it could be for a Reising instead. I did not have any Reising mags to try in it when I took the pics. I still have the pouch but it is in deep storage around here somewhere and has not seen the light of day in years. I have owned this pouch for probably 20+ years.

Note the purple ink stamp. There may be other stamps I did not photograph at the time.

 

TSMGPouch.jpg

 

TSMG Aussie made Pouch back.jpg


Alec, I am aware of other USGI reverse Lend Lease stuff that has a Broad Arrow/letter. One item that comes to mind is a M1916 holster for the M1911A1 pistol. I have an example and another member and fellow holster nut, Artu, has one as well. Both have a Broad Arrow mark over a number or letter. I believe that is an inspector marking rather than a property marking (as it usually means), as suggested by Mr. X above. I don't have a pic handy of the holster but Artu does, I am sure, and I will ask him to drop into this discussion.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

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This is the aussie made M1916 holster Charlie mentioned. The first I spotted 4 or 5 years ago now is in Charlie's collection and other one or two fellow collector do own one of them. After having browse all the web I found that G.P.&S. was an aussie leather maker and a pair of 1920's dated military gaitors from his workshop was for sale in Australia. f course I registered myself on a militaria australian forum for more infos about and they told me Australia made a lot of equipment for GI's and USMC who first was deployed in PTO very poorly equipped. In other pics an M1916 private purchase made in New Caledonia and a M1909 australian made by Bonney& Clarke also "private purchase".

While The G.P.&S. M1916 is a true reverse lend lease and broad arrow (plus the govt inspector initial) proves it cause, as told, it means"Crown Property" exactly like the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on martial handguns. IMHO the manufacturer had a contract from australian govt who gave holsters to US just as reversed lend lease. If US govt would have ordered directly holster ther wouldn't have been need for broad arrow nor aussie military inspection.

Another chance would be that US govt would have ordered holsters to GP&S and appointed inspection to australian defence departement. But in this case the broad arrow would be out of place.

post-67-1262518692.jpg

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Corpsmancollector

Good evening gents,

 

Thank you for such a fantastic array of replies and sincere apologies for not replying to a thread I started, sooner! I have been out of the country over the new year and this is the first chance I have had to get on the forum since.

 

When I first saw the pouch, it reminded me of the pouch in Grunt Gear for Reising mags and I had not yet seen any Aussie made TSMG pouches (thanks go to Robin, Charlie & artu for their contributions!) that was the main reason for the title of the topic. Thanks for changing it mods!

 

Alec, I had no idea you were a forum member. I bought Grunt Gear when it first came out like Charlie and I continue to use it as a reference on a regular basis. My thanks and congratulations go to you for putting together such a magnificent and thorough work!

 

Obviously from the conversation above the pouch was made for Thompson mags, as clearly seen in Robin's photo. It's the first of its kind that I had seen and obviously warranted a high price tag. I don't think there's much else to say that hasn't been said, other than thanks to all contributors!

 

Happy new year one and all.

 

Will

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This is the aussie made M1916 holster Charlie mentioned. The first I spotted 4 or 5 years ago now is in Charlie's collection and other one or two fellow collector do own one of them. After having browse all the web I found that G.P.&S. was an aussie leather maker and a pair of 1920's dated military gaitors from his workshop was for sale in Australia. f course I registered myself on a militaria australian forum for more infos about and they told me Australia made a lot of equipment for GI's and USMC who first was deployed in PTO very poorly equipped. In other pics an M1916 private purchase made in New Caledonia and a M1909 australian made by Bonney& Clarke also "private purchase".

While The G.P.&S. M1916 is a true reverse lend lease and broad arrow (plus the govt inspector initial) proves it cause, as told, it means"Crown Property" exactly like the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on martial handguns. IMHO the manufacturer had a contract from australian govt who gave holsters to US just as reversed lend lease. If US govt would have ordered directly holster ther wouldn't have been need for broad arrow nor aussie military inspection.

Another chance would be that US govt would have ordered holsters to GP&S and appointed inspection to australian defence departement. But in this case the broad arrow would be out of place.

 

The arrow inspection mark is not out of place in this holster.

 

The broad arrow with single letter, pair of letters or numbers underneath does not indicate government (crown) ownership. It indicates that it has been inspected by a government inspector. Hence the arrow. I have seen letters/numbers without the arrow and I believe that this may indicated that the item has been inspected by a company inspector rather than a government one.

 

The (usually) larger Broad Arrow marking, by itself, is actually the British Govenment ownership marking. The Australian Government ownership marking is actually D /I\ D that is D arrow D.

 

The holster in question was supplied reverse lend lease to the US Government by the Australian government. It was manufactured by an Australian company G.P.&S. LTD and inspected by an Australian Government quality control inspector. Does this Holster have the US stamp on the flap?

 

Hopefully the following information should help. Just remember that the information posted in another thread that is about British made US items and British Govt inspectors stamps. Not Australian.

 

One thing you might not be aware of is that the Broad Arrow on its own represents British Government ownership and therefore will not be found on British made US Equipment. That will of course have the 'U.S.' marking. The Broad Arrow and number marking which is usually found on British Made US Equipment is a British Govt inspectors stamp. Government inspectors were employed by the Govt to inspect the products made by the various companies.

 

Where this gets a little confusing is when there are inspectors markings without the Broad Arrow such as in the 3rd photograph below. I can only guess as to the reason for this, but it may be because the item was inspected by a company hired inspector and not a government inspector. I do not have an example but some British made US equipment may have this arrow-less inspectors stamp. But having said that I believe that it is safe to say that all British made US Equipment has an inspection stamp of some form or another.

 

marking.jpg

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A British issue item. Note the Broad Arrow British Government ownership marking. Also note the Government Inspector stamping.

 

Marking2.jpg

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A British issue item that has an Inspectors stamp without an arrow.

 

marking3.jpg

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Here is a picture I have just made explaining Australian Government ownership and inspectors markings.

It shows them in use on the one item of web equipment.

 

Note the M-1916 holster above only has the manufacturer's marking and the Australian Government inspectors marking. It does not have an Australian Govt ownership marking as the holster was not owned by the Australian Government; unlike the item below.

 

marking4.jpg

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Here is something else that I have produced for everybody.

 

I have adapted and modified that table as found in The British Soldier: From D-Day to VE Day Vol 1 by Jean Bouchery, Historie et Collections 1998

 

Note this only depicts the ownership marking of the various Commonwealth nations. It does not show the government inspectors markings from across the commonwealth. These are all somewhat similar with a small broad arrow and either letter(s) or numbers underneath to identify the individual inspector (see pictures above).

 

CommonwealthGovernmentOwnershipMark.jpg

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Yes, this holster bears the big US. As regards the meaning of the broad arrow I was referring to this interesting page

http://www.raaoc.com/?q=node/53

where broad arrow is never mentioned as inspection mark but only as "property" british govt mark and australian Defence Department property if betwee the two Ds. It's probable that in case of the G.P.&S. holster the australian inspector punch would have included the broad arrow together the distinctive H initial forming both the inspection mark having "casually" nothing to do with property.

BTW It's the only WWII M1916 holster not in natural russet leather but reddish dyied.

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post-67-1262678480.jpg

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I can assure you that the

 

/I\

H

 

on the M-1916 holster in question is only an Australian Govermnent Inspectors marking.

 

The ownership marking is the U.S. on the flap.

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I can assure you that the

 

/I\

H

 

on the M-1916 holster in question is only an Australian Govermnent Inspectors marking.

 

The ownership marking is the U.S. on the flap.

I agree.

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Charlie Flick

Mr. X:

 

Thanks very much for that clear explanation of these markings, and especially how they relate to the reverse Lend Lease equipment furnished to the US forces by Australia in WW2. That is most helpful.

 

By the way, do you know the identity of the "GP & S" manufacturer and where it was located in Australia?

 

Regards,

Charlie

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Corpsmancollector

Many thanks Mr. X for a wonderful explanation and very clear diagrams!

 

Will

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The British and Commonwealth acceptance markings are not in my realm of knowledge base so evident I mispoke in regards to broad arrow mark and US marking. Everyone is always learning something new.

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