Jump to content

.30-06 reversed bullets?


Recommended Posts

Hello everyone. I have a question about some .30-06 rounds I found on a hill in the Saarland. They have the bullets reversed. I found several of them on a hill with empty M1903 stripperclips and spent casings. I know they used reversed bullets during WW1 for short range sniper fire because the bullets do more damage this way. Is it possible that this is the case with these rounds? Note, the fighting on this hill was static for about a week.

 

trip17.jpg

 

trip16.jpg

Allways interested in 94th items and personal accounts!

 

All gave some,

Some gave all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If memory serves me correctly I did research on the subject of these so called "Dum Dum" Rounds. What I came up with is that the term "Dum Dum" Comes from an aresenal in india where they made lead rifle rounds for one of the biritish rifles. Outlawed by the Hague convention, The purpose behind the bullet is for the lead and jacket flatten when they hit the body or metal at close or medium range where as the jacketed tip of the 30-06 would just poke holes through someone at that distance. They also do some hellatious damage going through trees, which is perhaps why you are finding them in this heavily wooded area. Being turned around provides the bullet with a whole lot more Hydrostatic Shock from flattening when it hits the body instead of having a clean in and out wound. Some ultimate stopping power but suffers from poor accuracy at distance. I have some from WWI which came in the grouping of an infantry soldier from the trenches. It has been said that these rounds were viewed as maiming devices and thus anyone who was caught with them would suffer a more horrible death than any other found with normal rounds. At a collector's meeting we recently had a discussion about this type of round. One collector said he had a friend who jumped into a german trench after a push and found piles of this type of ammo used by the germans, the guy went crazy and killed all the prisoners and wounded. It was accepted because of what they had found, thats how big of a deal it was back in those days.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to say it, but to rule every other option out, you would need to pull the bullet to see what is behind the neck. Simply turning bullets around would cause a very dangerous over pressure situation that would potentially blow the gun up. The ogive and nose portion of the bullet would protrude back into the powder area creating less space with the same amount of powder causes higher pressure. This would make for a very bad day unless you dumped powder out, then again, you are changing the dynamics of the round, not a good thing either.


Visit my eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/crustyw4scorner/

 

35lyhcy.gif2d29461.gifixd2rm.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your reactions! The rounds do have a reduced powder charge, I believe it is just over half the amount of powder for a standard .30-06 round. Firing these from a semi or fully automatic weapon seems very dangerous to me but since we found a few empty Springfield clips around would it be possible that some of these were fired from a M1903?

Allways interested in 94th items and personal accounts!

 

All gave some,

Some gave all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The German's had thick steel plates used for observation and sniping, they had a little door that one could look threw or point a weapon out. Normal bullets could put a dent in them maybe, but if you pulled the bullet and put it back in the shell backwards when it was fired and it struck the steel plate it would cause a rather large dent on the face of the steel plate and cause the back to fracture spraying whomever was behind it with shrapnel. I know that the French and the British used this method so seeing an American round does not surprise me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You didn't say in you post, were these standard ball rounds turned around? Can you show a picture of one? It is possible that they could be fired from a 1903, it could still produce a dangerous pressure level. However, I would guess that during war, that isn't as of a great concern.


Visit my eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/crustyw4scorner/

 

35lyhcy.gif2d29461.gifixd2rm.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO it's a silly thing. If I had to risk to be sodomized cause irregular ammos my choice would have been some accurate soft point deer load from home. And for some light steel plate a "common" carbide core bullet would have do the job.

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlman,

 

I am currently reading Sniping in the Great War by Martin Pegler. On page 63 writes that the average British soldier in the trench believed the Germans were using 'tampered' bullets. In response some British soldiers, against regulations, would modify their bullets. He states that it was a court martial offence and that modification could take several forms, filing or cutting the tips off and removing then replacing the bullet in reverse. He further states that a few German snipers were captured with a clip of reversed bullets and that he owned such a cartridge found on the Somme battlefield. He further explains, as has been mentioned in prior post, that this was extremely dangerous and I am sure that is why it was a court martial offence. This cartridge find it very interesting and is does shead some light in the darker corners of military operations. :thumbsup:

VR,

Michael

Link to post
Share on other sites

Reversing bullet of their 8mm Steyr was also quite common among austrian soldiers on italian front in veteran memories. When one has a good (not so) idea everybody will copy it.

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you for your reactions! The rounds do have a reduced powder charge, I believe it is just over half the amount of powder for a standard .30-06 round. Firing these from a semi or fully automatic weapon seems very dangerous to me but since we found a few empty Springfield clips around would it be possible that some of these were fired from a M1903?

 

 

BAR mags could be charged with 5 round strippers

Link to post
Share on other sites
You didn't say in you post, were these standard ball rounds turned around? Can you show a picture of one? It is possible that they could be fired from a 1903, it could still produce a dangerous pressure level. However, I would guess that during war, that isn't as of a great concern.

 

I'll try to make a good picture of one. I believe they are standard ball ammunition.

Allways interested in 94th items and personal accounts!

 

All gave some,

Some gave all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

BAR mags could be charged with 5 round strippers

 

The BAR relied on gas pressure of the fired round so I don't think it is a good idea to change the pressure by turning the bullets around and changing the level of powder.

Allways interested in 94th items and personal accounts!

 

All gave some,

Some gave all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have found similar bullets . I still don't know whats the point of it.

" You can manufacture weapons and you can purchase ammunition,

But you can't buy valor and you can't pull heroes off an assembly line ".

 

-Sergeant John B. Ellery-

U.S. 1st Infantry Division

 

Hang Tough my friend!

Link to post
Share on other sites

The purpose is to create extremely nasty inhumane damage. A ball round literally pokes holes through the body with some cavitation wounding due to shock wave damage. These bullets tumble terribly when they hit the body, tearing large horrendous wounds that are literally impossible to patch and mend. Many people with standard bullet wounds can continue to fight with some reduced capability, but when you have huge chunks of tissue ripped away, you are pretty much done. Look at the damage created on troops during the civil war, amputation was the answer in many cases because the limbs were so mangled by large slow moving lead balls that crushed bones to shards.

Secondly, one of the desired effects of combat is to produce such a large casualty rates that the enemy's hospital system is so over loaded that the the supply system cannot keep up. It takes on average, three men to care for every wounded man. Imagine a hospital full of men with wounds so horrific that they take up larger quantities of bandages, doctors, and aids than normal; won't take long before the enemy has to capitualate from being overwhelmed, or at least that is the theory.


Visit my eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/crustyw4scorner/

 

35lyhcy.gif2d29461.gifixd2rm.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm surprised that reversed bullets wouldn't get caught or damage the barrel. It can't be too accurate either....

 

-Ski

In Memory Of......
Pte Harold Griffiths, 1805, 1/6th Manchester Regt, KIA June 4th, 1915 in Gallipoli
Cpl Isaac Judges, 40494, 6th East Yorkshire Regt, KIA October 3rd, 1917 in Ypres
May they rest in peace.....

MSgt - USAF Retired

donation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2017.gif


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm surprised that reversed bullets wouldn't get caught or damage the barrel. It can't be too accurate either....

 

-Ski

 

They do damage the barrel, primarily the throat, it would greatly accelerate throat errosion and it would also allow a lot of gas to bypass the bullet as the point of the bullet is helping to direct gas through the grooves instead of sealing like the base does, thus reducing pressure and accuracy. It is definitely a close use weapon.


Visit my eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/crustyw4scorner/

 

35lyhcy.gif2d29461.gifixd2rm.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking the same as Teamski! That's so stupidly dangerous to do, no wonder it was forbidden, probably for the tamperer's sake primarily! heh

If you can read this, thank a teacher, and, since it's in English, thank a soldier.

- Anonymous

Dedicated to the hard core.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There was some interest in the idea of firing bullets base forward in the three or four years right after WWII. This was with the idea of using them for hunting. Also during this time period there was as interest in cutting off the nose or hollowing pointing the FMJ of the .30 cal rifle bullet for the same reason.

 

After reading this in the ’Dope Bag’ of back issues I had of the “American Rifleman” I became curious as how this would work and gave it a try. I fired approx 200 rounds (20rd groups) of M2 Ball (WWII production) with their bullets pulled and reversed. I had 300 yd range at my home and fired most of them across that. At 100yd there were really no noticeable differences in the groups although the base forward bullets did appear to lower in the group than the point forward ones. At 200yd the groups were separated (some intermixing at the top and lower edges of each group), base forward bullets lower and a slightly larger group. Then at 300yd the trend continued with total separation of the groups with the base forward group being approx 1/3 larger than the point forward bullets. If I remember correctly, at 300yd the normally seated bullets went into about 10” and the base forward bullets went into about 16”. I fired one group at 600yd, the point first bullets being about on for 600yd but the base forward bullets landed so low most were not even on the paper. I would estimate the base forward bullets’ center of group to be at least four ft lower. The base forward bullets cut a nice round hole in the paper and it was easy to tell the difference between the impacts of the point forward and the base forward bullets. The only notes that have survived from that time is one that the ammunition that I used would normally grouped in 3“ at 100 yds.

 

I tried some base forward bullets in my expansion test medium at the time. Expansion began almost at once and was explosive, a huge cavity. Penetration was no more than eight inches,, most no more than six. My test medium was water soaked phone books. The phone books of 50 years ago were far more uniform in material than those of today.

 

I was concerned about what reversing the bullets would do to pressure, however with the simple methods I had at the time (bolt lift, head & web expansion and primer appearance) I could detect no differences in pressures with the unaltered, points forward and the pulled and reversed bullets. I would suppose there was an increase in pressures but none that I could detect.

 

I did all the firing from my one and only M1903 that I had then, all firing was done with issue sights and my 16 year old eyes’. I had GI headspace gages and the use of a 03 throat erosion gage, I checked the rifle before the test and after and did not see any changes. I later did my apprenticeship with the man who supplied the TE gage.

 

45B20

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

theblackbox

 

Thank you, it is interesting, just really how useful?? Iam not sure. Sure wish I still had the youthful exuberance I had then. So many things I saw (movies) and read, I had to try out. Luckily I did not live in the ‘bubble wrap mentality’ (“oh, don’t try that, you might get hurt“) , world we live in now.

 

45B20

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there has been a lot of speculation about these reversed bullets among other detectoramateurs over the years saying it could have been trench art, that you could never should it accurate over 60 yards, your data proves that it can. You are right about the bubble mentality, here in Holland the authorities try to ban everything that could hurt you or gives them to much paperwork but then again, they do allow softdrugs which is a mayor problem in my opinion... Strange world.

Allways interested in 94th items and personal accounts!

 

All gave some,

Some gave all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

theblackbox

 

Please note the limits of my test, it proved that with the ammo I had,, what the results would be with the bullets reversed using reloading equipment and fired in one rifle, that is all. If WWII GIs could get the same results with the equipment they had, I am not so sure. Also remember, that after mid 42, the .30 cal. M2 AP became increasingly the most common round. I have spoken with GIs who served in Europe 44-45 who do not remember any .30 cal rifle ammo that did not have a colored tip of some kind. I am sure some M2 Ball was present in Europe, just how readily available, I do not know. I do not see what useful purpose a reversed AP projectile would serve, other than ’art’ of course.

 

I served in Viet Nam, when ever I saw any altered 7.62 NATO projectiles, it was done by filing off the nose to expose the lead, sometimes with a hole drilled in the middle. This was usually done with a precision tool such as a nail. I did not know anyone who took this stuff seriously.

 

The idea of filing off or hollow pointing the 30 cal M2 Ball projectile for hunting was also tied, but the NRA strongly discouraged it. There were too many occurrences of lead cores blowing thru the now unsupported nose and leaving the jacked in the bore. If not noticed, the next round would neatly press the jacket into the wall of the barrel. While working a gunsmith I noted a few such ’pressed in jackets’ in rifles brought in. The owners usually did not know of it until I pointed it out. Sometimes a very slight bulge on the outside of the barrel. No real deterioration in the performance of the rifle that I could see. The opinions of some,, was that this would not be a problem with a boat tail projectile such as the 7.62 M80 Ball, don’t know, I never tried it.

 

We should all be thankful for the Liberals taking care of the rest of us, the ’Great Unwashed”,, they are doing such a great job. I am not sure about Europe, but here in the US, our Jackson political system has given us some of the biggest twits for us to select between. The last real American to run for President was Goldwater. I was told if I voted for him I would end up in a war, so I did, and I did end up in a war.

See, the Liberals know what they are doing.

 

45B20

Link to post
Share on other sites
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.