USMC Spanish War Cartridge Box ?

[teufelhunde.ret]

Hi folks, tried to post this in Ref. Sec., but posts there are restricted. So going to try here and I'm sure someone will move this post to the right location.

 

Acquired this item few years ago so I could study the EGA on the flap. Never got a true ID of the period for this cartridge box and have presumed since the EGA is period original, that this item is of Spanish War era.

 

I would appreciate your comments about this item regarding it collectibilty and what market values are for such items, as this is not my area of interest and I have seen so few? Is this a reflection of rarity of just an item that a Marine decided to personalize, like "trenched EGA's". Thank you for you input!

[teufelhunde.ret]

top...

[teufelhunde.ret]

bottom...

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back...

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flap...

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open flap...

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box...

[teufelhunde.ret]

the EGA...

[bobgee]

Darrell.....Nice looking item. A few questions.......? What is the embossed insignia under the brass plate? US; USMC or USN? I assume you found no date. These old mid to late 19th century leather accoutements usuall had them. Can you shoot a pic of the interior and the back and the sides. I think this will help in pinning down the period and the weapon it was intended for. I'm inclined to think the adding of the EGA on the brass plate was a personal affectation but could have applied to all Marines on a certain ship or station.

Semper Fi.......Bob

Ha Ha........well that was fast!!!! Your additional pics were being posted as I was writing!....Bob

[teufelhunde.ret]

Hi Bob, I have tried my darndest to see what, or if anything is beneath the brass plate and simply cannot get a view without you know... taking it apart

 

You are correct, have scoured it over and there are no markings nor residual evidence of any labeling by the Marine or manufacturer.

 

My feelings and sense are the same, this was added. And if so, it was done with the greatest of care. As you can view the prongs of the EGA are very neatly tucked in behind the brass plate, as well as, the prongs that pierced the leather are tucked neatly and firmly against the leather flap.

 

And thank you for the reply!

[cwnorma]

DD-ret,

 

IMHO I don't like it. It smacks to me of "stick an ega on it and watch the Marine collectors go crazy for it" syndrome.

 

- From the interior of the flap shot it appears to be marked US not USN or USMC.

 

- The EGA looks to be chemically blued, and has lots of verdigris-patina, yet the brass plate it is mounted on has none?

 

- This style of cartridge case pre dates the McKeevers making it roughly 1880s yet The EGA is from around the turn of the century?

 

Of course, Marines especially aboard ship, often had obsolete gear, and there is nothing saying it couldn't have been made back in the day, but...

 

I think it is a curiosity.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Chris

[teufelhunde.ret]

Hi Chris, it does have the appearance of US on the flap, just cannot see beneath the plate... to verify

 

Upon close inspection of the area beneath the plate & beneath the EGA, the area is loaded undisturbed verdigris and has carried onto the leather flap beneath the plate, so I sense the plate/EGA are original to the piece.

 

The EGA is a Spanish War Era emblem, hence my assumption. As you point out, could this be an obsolete piece and personalized later?

 

And thank you for your reply!

[bayonetman]

The box itself is a Hagner #2 cartridge box, developed by Col P.V. Hagner who was at the time the commanding officer of Watervliet Arsenal.

 

It was originally made for the .50-70 cartridge, but was modified, probably at Rock Island Arsenal, for the .45-70 cartridge. The was done by adding a strip of leather with "fingers" that went down inside the loops to make them somewhat smaller to fit the smaller diameter cartridge.

 

These boxes were used only for a few years by the Army, mostly being phased out of service in the mid-1870s when they were replaced by the Dwyer pouch for the cavalry and the McKeever box for the infantry. They probably were used for some further time by Militia/National Guard units.

 

In some cases, possible by States or Military Schools, the brass plate was placed over the US to show that it was no longer US military property. Boxes so modified were being sold by surplus dealers such as Stokes-Kirk, Bannerman, and even Dixie Gun Works at least into the 1960s.

 

I have no record of them having been used by the Marines, but I suppose anything is possible.

 

See Dorsey, R. Stephen; American Military Belts and Related Equipment ; p. 60.

[teufelhunde.ret]

Hi Gary,

 

When did they begin to put the plates over the top of US? Would this have been something a Marine bought for his own use since field gear seemed to be of such short supply at that time?

 

Thank you for your reply and detailed information...!

[bobgee]

Howdy Darrell......Excellent i.d. by bayonetman. I checked everything I have and could not find any USMC usage of such a box. I was stumped by the 18 round feature. I think it's hard to figure when these pieces came together bu it appears it was a long time ago. I have some old Bannerman and Stoke-Kirk catalogs and didn't find it in them I would think a Hagner box as described would be pretty scarce. Am I right? I disagree with Chris about the artificial aging of the emblem. My gut says this was not done to deceive. When you acquired it, was it at a price that was "comfortable"? S/F.....Bob

[teufelhunde.ret]

Hi Bob, got it from ebay... as I recall. Jeremiah remembers it, he set a PM. But you know how I feel about EGA's and it is the real thing, a true period original. So how did these two items connect?

 

As you sense, this was done a long... time ago, thus I'm trying to figure it out... the who, what, where, when & why?

 

That you for the reply and thoughts.

[cwnorma]

THret,

 

IMHO:

 

I think it was personalized, but the question is just exactly when?

 

Years ago, I knew a guy named Jack W. who lived in Florida. Jack was a retired Marine who augmented his living selling USMC and Nazi militaria. Of course he would deal in original items when he could but he had no compunctions about "improving" an item or even out-right faking some. Jack was a creative guy; he put a lot of collar emblems on holsters, actually went so far as to have stamps made up for marking field gear, etc. The point is, Jack would tell people who asked the question, that everything he had was either "Marine modified" or for the Nazi stuff "brought back by a Marine" and to top it off he would give his unconditional gaurantee. He just didn't mention that he was the Marine.

 

Getting back to your cartridge box, that particular pattern of EGA was available surplus well into the 1970s. I know a guy on the east coast, who has a box of 100 or so he bought from Stokes Kirk before they folded.

 

The box itself looks pretty beat up, and yet despite the verdigris, the EGA itself seems to have little to no wear. Most of the WW1 ones that I have, are worn to the point of loss of detail on the Lat/Longs, Mercator, and continents at the high point of the globe. I would think that a cartridge box, hung on a belt, would get banged around quite a bit in use.

 

Of course, I suppose anything is possible. Your Marine could have been on shore leave in NY, and bought the thing at Bannerman's store around the turn of the century, and modified it then... It could even have been modified by Bannerman, they would do just about anything to make a sale.

 

Or, someone like Jack (heck, it could have even been Jack) could have taken a good surplus emblem, an old--but not very desireable--surplus cartridge box, and some chemical blackening/verdigris salts and voila'; "That's a heck-of-a nice 'Old Corps' item"

 

I guess, in a way, I am lucky to have met someone like Jack early in my collecting career. The lesson he inadvertantly taught me was to automatically be skeptical of things especially when they are exotic (and cosequently more desireable/valuable).

 

Chris

[teufelhunde.ret]

Hey Chris, great info. I'm at home and cannot get a better EGA posted untill Monday. Would like your additional thoughts upon seeing a better shot.

 

Best regards, and thanks for the followup post!!

[bayonetman]

The ones that I have seen with the brass plate over the US seem to be very consistent, and the plate fits well enough that it was apparently made to cover the mark. For that reason, I would believe that the modification was made by the surplus dealer prior to sale, rather than the militia unit or school. This box was pretty well out of US service by 1880 or before, and the modification could have been done then or for years later. Knowing the reputation of the Marines back in the time period we are discussing, I can't see a marine being allowed to use his own box or to modify a box in this manner. As I have never seen one like it before to my memory in almost 50 years of messing with this stuff, I tend to think it is a one of a kind and not in any way official use.

 

In the late 50s and early 60s there was a surplus store in Cincinnati that literally had boxes full of mid to late 1800s leather gear for very low prices as no one really collected the stuff at that time. As I recall, McKeever boxes were a dollar or two each, and he had several variations which I dug through and probably picked up a half dozen or more with different styles and markings. I also picked up other varieties of the cartridge boxes and belts, most of which got away from me over the next 10 years or so. Sure wish I had kept all of them, be a really nice collection now.

[alibi]

As to the cartridge box at issue here it is possible, but not likely that this item was used by the Marine Corps in the 1870-80s. It is more likely that the EGA was added much later. One of the aspects of military service is that bands, color guards and a whole host of other small "dressy elite with-in the elite" have done things like this to dress up their uniforms. Sometimes "obsolete" equipment was diverted to some new use such as a cartridge box used as a fuse box and etc.

[teufelhunde.ret]

plate / EGA removed

the back...

the eagle...

and "US" flap..

[teufelhunde.ret]

I wish to thank Bob, Chris and Gary for all the invaluable information shared about this mystery box. After reading all the thoughts and insight into the origins of this box and the likelihood of this being original to the Spanish War or early 20th century, I decided to take the emblem and brass plate off for further examination. And as has been offered, I now feel the components were assembled well after the period this item reflects. While disappointed, its an investment in education that will actually become rewarding to me and thus shared with other members of the forum, especially my fellow Marines. And without the persistence of those who offered these opinions and shared their thoughts, I would have gone on, and perhaps duped others into the same line of thought.

 

Postscript; the pouch is now for sale any reasonable offer will be accepted, (sorry, the EGA stays with me. It now has a permanent home).