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t patt (bravo 2 zero)

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Hello everybody, my nickname is Celtic, I am Spanish and collector in marine usmc, I am interested in camouflage used by the body especially'm looking for the one used in the 90s called t-patt pattern or trial, if someone can help me I would like to get some

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Hello everybody, my nickname is Celtic, I am Spanish and collector in marine usmc, I am interested in camouflage used by the body especially'm looking for the one used in the 90s called t-patt pattern or trial, if someone can help me I would like to get some

 

T-patt back in 2005 was everywhere on eBay, could pick a set up inc. helmet cover for less than $150, now a helmet cover runs about $400 alone !!!

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thank you very much for your help, if you know who has one or inform me where I can buy it interests me, especially the helmet covers, I have Spanish materials in case anyone cares

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thank you very much for your help, if you know who has one or inform me where I can buy it interests me, especially the helmet covers, I have Spanish materials in case anyone cares

 

The best person to ask and the only real dealer in this is Sgt.Hulka on eBay USA. Back about 4 years he had this stuff on pretty much weekly. I know he may not have them now but he could do you deal when he gets some like he did me.

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The T pattern and other urban camouflage were used during "Operation Urban Warrior" or MOUT operations.

 

There's around 3 different camouflages for urban operations. The first one called "urban pattern" was used by 1st Battalion, 8th Marine during an exercice in january 1998. Around 80 soldiers participated at this exerice in Camp Lejeune.

 

The second one is an reversible woodland-urban version that was tested by US Army and USMC.

 

The last one is the most know experimental T-pattern camouflage. It was use only by the USMC (C Co, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Division) during an open urban exercice in Oakland (Ca.) for the "Operation Urban Warrior" (march 1999). If you looks on "youtube", it's possible to see videos of this operation (search "operation urban warrior") !

 

I only have the T-pattern PASGT vest cover, but I search other parts of this uniform (jacket, trousers and helmet cover) if someone have hem for sale ! I don't want any copy. I personaly have some chance : I bought my PASGT-V cover for $50 (last year)...and it's an original, not a bad chinese copy.

 

You can find pictures of my PASGT-V cover and soldiers wearing them at :

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/militariabelgi...MCEXPERIMENTAL#

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

P-E


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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Here's some pictures of soldiers wearing the T-pattern camouflage (C Co, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Division during an open urban exercice in Oakland (Ca.) for the "Operation Urban Warrior" - march 1999) ;

 

USMCurban.jpg

 

t-pattern%20camouflage.jpg

 

DM-SD-00-02960.jpg

 

DM-SD-00-02959.jpg

 

DM-SD-00-02958.jpg

 

DM-SD-00-02955.jpg

 

DM-SD-00-02953.jpg

 

urban_marine01_l.jpg

 

urban_marine02_l.jpg

 

urban_marine03_l.jpg


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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urban_marine04_l.jpg

 

urban_marine05_l.jpg

 

urban_marine06_l.jpg

 

And here're the pictures of the other operation (1998);

 

urban_warrior8.jpg

 

urban_warrior7.jpg

 

urban_warrior10.jpg

 

urban_warrior12.jpg

 

If you have other pictures, thanks to send them to me (militariabelgium@gmail.com). It's rare to find...so realy interesting to see ! :w00t:


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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Nice figurine !

 

And here's pictures of my PASGT-vest cover in T-pattern cammo. It's as new, but misses a black velcro. It's an original in perfect condition. Made by UNICOR. You can see the label is originaly for the DESERT PASGT-V cover.

 

IMG_4208.JPG

 

IMG_4210.JPG

 

IMG_4645.JPG

 

And here's another curiosity :

 

Capture%20plein%20écran%2018122009%20122816.bmp.jpg

 

(US Air force urban BDU ?)


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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P-E

 

Your PASGT vest cover is unfortunately, not an original.

 

If you look at the label, you will notice it says " Camouflage Pattern: Desert ".

There is another existing thread on this I believe, you should take a look.....

 

Maybe somebody else remembers the link and can post it here?

 

Duffy


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Hello Duffy,

 

Thanks for response. Yes, I see the others topics in this forum about the t-pattern. On the second link, "Philip" has show his PASGT-Vest and the label...curiously, it's the same with "DESERT" ! And Philip has the complete set (jacket, trousers and PASGT-Vest), all original.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...&hl=pattern

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...ttern&st=20 (look this one : PASGT-V cover !)

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...&hl=pattern (fake, copy)

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...12&hl=urban

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...29&hl=urban

 

No, for me it's well an original. Why original ? Because it's produce in realy less quantity than jacket and tousers, so they don't produce label for this PASGT-V and took again the old label for the desert. All the soldier that worn the T-pattern camouflage haven't a PASGT-V cover in T-pattern. Some others worn a black (look like police) flak vest (see the first picture in front of that post).

 

For the trousers and jacket, that's not the same. They were produce in realy more quantities and so, they have a specific label for them. Inside the helmet cover, it's print (so easy to modify by the manufacturer).

 

Manufacturer are :

- for the Jacket : Step Inc.

- for the trousers : Goodwill Industries of South Florida, Inc.

- for the PASGT Vest cover : Unicor

- for the PASGT Helmet cover : Mt Rogers MH & MR SER.BD.

 

Here's pictures of labels inside an original Coat

 

mrmout4.jpg

 

mrmout3.jpg

 

and now inside a COPY ;

 

USMCurban_blouserstag2_jpg_jpg.jpg

 

USMCurban_blousertag_jpg_jpg.jpg

 

Label of an original trousers ;

 

neu3090lha.jpg

 

Label of a trousers (COPY !) :

 

USMCurban_trouserstag_jpg_jpg.jpg

 

As you can see, in all copies, it's well write "URBAN". Trust me, the person that copy an original with that high quality work, have the possibility to copy a label with "URBAN".... but not done here ? why ? No, for me it's well an original. And when I compare the quality of my PASGT-V cover in T pattern with other camo (desert 3 colors and 6 colors), it's exactly the same work, no as a cheap copy. If you'll, I can send you detailled picture to see by yourself.

 

When I compare the quality of the cloth material between mine and copy, there's some differences : color, texture,...

 

It's difficult to well identify an original and a copy. In experimental uniforms and camos, there's not some informations and nothing official release. For the T-pattern, we have more chance, because it was realy used during an open exercice inside the city (Oakland, CA), and it was realy mediatised ;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt2pQgW3wX8&translated=1 (1/3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=932Zu4e4iVM...feature=related (2/3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G25JiGMLxIA...feature=related (3/3)

http://www.tekawiz.com/modernusmcmout

http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/mout/urban_warrior.html

http://www.defense.gov/specials/urbanwarrior/

 

I hope this helps.

 

regards,

 

P-E


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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Your PASGT vest cover is unfortunately, not an original.

If you look at the label, you will notice it says " Camouflage Pattern: Desert ".

 

I know it's a little weird but the flak vest cover do all say "desert pattern".

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P-E

 

 

If you feel that your vest cover is legit, then thats the way you feel.

 

I have learned additional info. about these vest covers from the forum here, as at one time I thought the one I had years ago was

a legit one. I figured that yes, it did have a white label which did seem odd, and a simple typo in the description on the label....but, what

could be wrong with the piece, everything else looked great?

Unfortunately, I was wrong.

 

MOUT pieces, such as the blouse / trousers / and vest cover...were all manufactured with the same type of labels found in bdu's and dcu's.....

including the same color.

 

For the other pieces I had owned of this pattern....the helmet cover and blouse.

 

Duffy


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Hello again and thanks for your response. Is that possible to send us picture of your T-pattern camo ? I search some pictures of them (and if possible, take a picture of the label inside the helmet cover).

 

For my PASGT-V cover, I tell : "No, you have wrong..." :think: ;

 

I agree with you, label inside jacket and trousers in DCU, BDU and T-pattern camo are all in the same color : tan-brown for the DCU and T-pattern, green-grey for the woodland.

 

For the PASGT-Helmet cover : woodland helmet cover, it's print in black. For the desert helmet cover, it's print in brown and for the T- pattern cover, it's write in white.

 

I agree with you for that.

 

But don't forget that the label inside the PASGT-Vest are white for all camouflage ! So no, it isn't the same tan-brown color for label inside jacket, trousers and PASGT-Vest cover !

 

pasgtcover.jpg

 

Vestcoverlarge2.JPG

 

As you can see with all copy of T-pattern, they all use their own label, not old label of another issued uniform ! Why is it different with T-pattern PASGT-Vest cover ? And personaly, I never see a copy of a PASGT-vest cover (for all camouflages)...well for uniforms, jacket or trousers and helmet cover, but never for PASGT-Vest cover...

 

And as I told you, all persons on this forum that have original parts of this T-pattern camo, include Philip, have all the white label inside their own T-pattern PASGT-V.

 

Here's another one (not mine ! it's the same size, but I certify you that's not my PASGT-Vest cover !!!!) :

 

Sans%20titre.jpg

 

All copies ? Everybody have copy ? No ! Only me ?...hum...no, it'll be illogic...

 

How can you tell "MOUT pieces, such as the blouse / trousers / and vest cover...were all manufactured with the same type of labels found in bdu's and dcu's..... including the same color. " ? Are you sure of that ? And where did you see it ?

 

But if you have others informations about the PASGT-Vest label, not only your own intuition, and if you have another picture showing another color for this label, thanks to show us ! I'm realy curious to see it, and I'll know. :think:

 

And about "desert", Philip confirm you in his previous comment that he also have writing "desert" inside his PASGT-Vest cover !

 

It's experimental, so there's not some informations about that. If you have something (picture,...), please let us know. Yes, it's difficult to say...and when I receive it, I realy know having a copy when I see the label. But after research, I think now I have an original, as Philip. And as I told you, I bought it at a retired marine corps soldier. It isn't a reference, but I do not bought it in China..well in USA ! But I don't know if he participates at "Operation Urban Warrior". I asked him, but never receive response.

 

Realy hard to say if it's an original, I agree with you. But there's some things that let me know it's well an original. So please, if you have something official, or picture that show us it's well a copy, thanks to show us ! In waiting for these informations, I consider I have well an original, as Philip !

 

Pierre-Emmanuel (P-E)

 

ps : Duffy, I see you're canadian, do you speak french ? Because I've difficult to explain in english... :crying: :dunno:


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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P-E

 

I was just trying to help you out.

Obviously, we see things different and that is fine, this is a forum after all....we are here to debate.

 

I don't have pictures of the T-Pattern I had, unfortunately I never took any photographs.

 

For the helmet cover, yes....the info. on the inside should be printed in white.

 

Do I speak French? Sorry...but I don't.

 

There isn't a whole lot of reference about these urban vest covers we are speaking of here, and yes...maybe,

they were manufactured with regular - desert vest cover labels....sure.

I for some reason, just don't see that happening...but I could be wrong.

 

I see it as the uniform itself was made with correct labels, the same goes with the information printed on the inside

of the helmet covers....all stating that it is an urban camouflage, so why not the vest cover?

Wish I could help you out further.

 

Duffy


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P-E / bravo 2 zero

 

Guys, I myself have said in an older thread how my vest cover was the same....that it had a white label and the typos, but that

it was the real deal. Soon after hearing that there may be several repros of this stuff, I felt that maybe the vest cover I

had was no different, and that it might have been a repro as well. I guess that might also be why I paid so little for it, compared

to the prices I paid for the blouse and helmet cover that I had.

 

As for Sgt. Hulka selling these vest covers with labels having typos....not sure what to say because he sells pretty legit pieces,

and sold a ton of the T-Pattern itself. He is a reputable seller and one I have dealt with several times throughout the years.

 

Duffy


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Hello again Duffy.

 

And thanks for your response ! We all are conscious it's difficult to certify the authenticity of each experimental item, so yes, I consider all proposition. I do not tell I have the solution, I'd just try to know and understand, as you and some other persons in this forum. You actively participate in the "search of the truth" about T-pattern and I thank you for that ! :thumbsup:

 

I'll respond to your question : "I see it as the uniform itself was made with correct labels, the same goes with the information printed on the inside

of the helmet covers....all stating that it is an urban camouflage, so why not the vest cover ?" I see two reasons thatfor ;

 

First :

 

For me, we can't compare the PASGT-vest cover with jacket and trousers because of the quantity that was produce. They were around 6000 marines that tooks part of the Operation Urban Warrior (information from http://www.defense.gov/specials/urbanwarrior/ and from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Urban_Warrior). When I look the picture of this operations, I see that all marines have the jacket, trousers and PASGT-Helmet cover. So, they were produce in large quantity. Considering the number of soldier involved in this exercice, I estimate more than 5000 sets (jacket, trousers and helmet cover) were produce, mabye more, maybe less.

 

For the PASGT-Vest cover, when I look the pictures, I see that only a few part of soldier worn it. The other part of soldier is wearing another black flak vest (unknow the name, but looks like police flak vest) or no cover for their PASGT-vest.

 

Black flak vest ;

 

USMCurban.jpg

 

Without cover for the PASGT-vest (just woodland) ;

 

DM-SD-00-02953.jpg

 

So for me, there's a less quantity of PASGT-Vest cover than quantity of jacket, trousers and helmet cover. Because all soldier show to wear the jacket, trousers and helmet cover, but not the PASGT-Vest cover.

 

Second :

 

How I explain there's an old label inside the PASGT-Vest only ?

 

Only a "small" quantity of the PASGT-Vest cover was produce. So, they took old label for the desert pattern, because it cost less money and it's experimental only. If you produce a large quantity, it's better to do a correct label. When we produce big quantity, it's interesting to invest more to produce the correct label. It's the reason why jacket and trousers have their correct label. Do you see what I'ld tell ? (I have the idea in my mind, but can't explain it in english :crying: ).

 

And it's also possible than big quantity of labels for the Desert 3 color PASGT-Vest cover were produce and never used. Why never use ? simply because at this period (1998-1999), another body armor is born ! The old PASGT-vests (= flak vest, fragmentative jacket) were replaced by the new Interceptor Body Armor (IBA, OTV - body armor, bullet proof). Between the two model, there's a large difference in protection ; the PASGT-V offers a protection against fragments (level II NIJ) and the new IBA offers a balistic protection level IIIA - III (with plates). So, it's more interesting to use the new IBA.

 

The PASGT-vest was stil worn (exercices, training and a little during the war in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq), but no more were produced. It was only old stock that were used. When a new body armor is created, it serves immediatly for deployed troop (in active duty). In 1999, it was the war in Kosovo, were american troops serves in the KFOR (United Nations UN). So, the first production of IBA was send there, and not for troops stationned in CONUS or reservists. After that, it was the Afghanistan war (2001) and the Iraq war (2003). There, all the american troops deployed had the new IBA. Only a few quantity of soldier (generaly behind the frontline) still wears the old PASGT-V.

 

For me, that the reason why old label for the desert cover were used: because there're too many label unissued and the production stopped. Why not for the jacket and trousers ? Because the DCU camo was use until 2005, and so trousers and jacket in DCU were still produce for the US Army, US Navy and US Air Force. In the USMC, it was only use during the beginning of OIF (Iraq) and replace by Marpat desert and woodland. So, it didn't had too many labels (old stock of label).

 

Maybe I go too far in my explanation, but for me it is a story of recovery of old label that will never be use again. So why not for the PASGT-Vest cover in T-pattern ? This doesn't answer the question of authenticity of my PASGT-vest cover in T-pattern, but can explain the use of such "desert pattern" labels. And why the helmet cover has is correct label ? Because the print in the helmet cover is made one by one (1 cover only), and not big quantity as for the labels inside jacket, trousers or PASGT-vest cover. I see nothing more about that...

 

I hope this helps....

 

Regards,

 

P-E


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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P-E

 

Thanks for typing such a detailed explanation about your theory.

 

I do see where you are coming from, as I try to keep an open mind with things.

We both seem to have good points to what we have said....

 

I'm not exactly sure as to why there doesn't seem to be as many vest covers as there is everything else in this pattern....

Your right about such.

 

As for the black vest that is shown, not positive what it is....but it appears to be a Law Enforcement vest, maybe Swat?

 

Duffy


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If only we could have information on the issue of this PASGT-vest cover by Unicor ?! ... :w00t: ... Is there nobody here that have contact with Unicor manufacturer to ask them the question ? Or is there nobody in USA that agree to phone them ? :lol: :lol: I realy want do know ! :rolleyes::lol:

 

Yes, it looks to be Law enforcement vest...but not sure. But if it's a model built just for this operation, it's extremly rare to find, because I never see it again...!

 

P-E


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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800 sets ? But there're 6000 marines + 700 sailors that participates at this exercice ! The sailors hasen't worn the T-pattern, but well the marines... when I look the pictures and videos, there's not some marines in woodland...

 

But yes, it can be possible...we'll never find any informations about that. It's true that if 5000 sets has been produce, we'ld have the possibility to find some more than currently...To compare, the CCU (close Combat Uniform - experimental uniform that introduces the new ACU) was produce in 2500 sets, and it's easy to find...so...maybe 800 sets for the T-pattern ? I don't know...


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up..." - Donald Rumsfeld (Camp Buehring, KU - Dec. 8, 2004)

See my current collection of desert SSI HERE
See my current collection of Badges (ranks, qualification badges, Branch of Service - from WW2 to present) HERE
See my files in PDF on scribd.com HERE
See my collection of jackets HERE

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