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MORTAR 60MM - Shoulder Fired

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With only seeing the front end of it I am wondering if what we are looking at is a 75mm M20 Recoiless Rifle, or a similar weapon.

 

http://www.robertsarmory.com/rrifle.htm

rrifle.jpg


Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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Wasn't there a 57mm recoiless as well. That was my 1st thought?


Looking for for 37th Division

VietNam and earlier Special Forces &

USS Hemminger DE 746 items

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Oh yeah guys, would YOU put the breech end of a Recoiless Rifle into the ground next to you to fire it?

 

Not me

 

The T21E1 is mentioned in Canfields Infantry Weapons of WWII (Page253) it also got a mention in Gordon Rottmans US Marine Corps 1941-1945 from Osprey.

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I looked at the 57mm as well, but it has that ring around the front of the bore. That doesn't seem to match this photo.

 

http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/57mm/index.html

rifle2.jpg


Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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Yeh, I was wonderin if they were gettin ready to fire the thing or just movin it around. That would be one hell of a dust storm! :crying: :blink: :pinch:


Looking for for 37th Division

VietNam and earlier Special Forces &

USS Hemminger DE 746 items

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

See my FB sales page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1928884587130681/pending/

 

 

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Oh yeah guys, would YOU put the breech end of a Recoiless Rifle into the ground next to you to fire it?

 

Not me

 

The T21E1 is mentioned in Canfields Infantry Weapons of WWII (Page253) it also got a mention in Gordon Rottmans US Marine Corps 1941-1945 from Osprey.

 

Who said anything about firing it? As noted above, looks more like it is being wrestled into position.

 

Are you sure about this T21E1 designation. The only thing that comes up on the internet is a 4.2 mounted on a halftrack. The bore of this weapon looks smaller.


Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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I think the screen shot I took was right after it fired.

If I can find the movie again I will link it

Thanks


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I think the screen shot I took was right after it fired.

If I can find the movie again I will link it

Thanks

Very interesting picture. The T18E6 direct fire 60mm mortar has a bracket on the front of the barrel that has an M15 grenade launcher sight on it. At first I thought I could make out the block for the sight but I think it is just a shadow. T18 would not have to have the sight and it has wing nuts to remove it. It can use either baseplate. I hope you find a link to the video.

 

Except for Canfields's book I have not heard of or seen a T21. Does anyone have a pic or other references.

 

 

T18E6

 

Mortar60mm7ORD4.jpg

 

edited to add pic of sight/bracket.

 

Mortar60mm7ORD9a.jpg

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Looking at the footage, I'm still going with a recoiless rifle. That's based on the way it is being direct fired. A mortar would be an indirect fire weapon.

 

Plus the large flanged area on the rear of the weapon on the first shot, and the grip or handle showing in the midsection of the second shot.

 

Very wild footage... notes on the site said nine photographers were wounded among the team that filmed the footage.


Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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I have looked at this thing several times today. I have a 57mm M18 (converted to 50BMG), compared them and it does not look like a RR to me. The flange looks too big. The British Northover projector is the only thing I can think of that looks like that but why would the Americans be shooting one in a documentary? :think: I'll email someone who may know and ask him to take a look.

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Keep in mind the angle that photo was shot it. It was taken from the rear of the weapon, and from a photographic angle it may have exaggerated the size of the rear flange.


Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

donation2017.gif

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif


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Keep in mind the angle that photo was shot it. It was taken from the rear of the weapon, and from a photographic angle it may have exaggerated the size of the rear flange.

Yes I agree it is still very interesting. I doubt if a recoilless could be fired from this position, but US troops would not have wanted to shoot a Northover. (piece of pipe with black powder charge and a grenade in it) Being a period film it has to be a real something just does not seem to fit. The direct fire T18E6 mortar is too small. Maybe it is a recoilless and there was an accident. Look at the mount also. What do you think about that?

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Who said anything about firing it? As noted above, looks more like it is being wrestled into position.

 

Are you sure about this T21E1 designation. The only thing that comes up on the internet is a 4.2 mounted on a halftrack. The bore of this weapon looks smaller.

 

 

I don't think either weapon is a recoiless rifle, as much as I want to say the second one is. The first one looks like a mortar. The second one kicks way to much for it to be a recoiless rifle although it has the forward handle like one. Are we looking at a battlefield modified or scratch built weapon? It would make sense in something being made to fire direct at Japanese fortifications.

 

-Ski

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In Memory Of......
Pte Harold Griffiths, 1805, 1/6th Manchester Regt, KIA June 4th, 1915 in Gallipoli
Cpl Isaac Judges, 40494, 6th East Yorkshire Regt, KIA October 3rd, 1917 in Ypres
May they rest in peace.....

MSgt - USAF Retired

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The footage is from Peleliu so definitely would not be a recoiless rifle. Probably a captured Japanese 70mm (?) mortar or a weapon unique to the Marines. I vaguely remember reading about a theater made low trajectory mortar used by the Marines to knock out bunkers and such.

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theater made low trajectory mortar

 

That is interesting. The Northover is just that only made for the Brit Home Guard. Hope you find a reference to these even if the pic turns out to be something else.

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Great discussion. The item sure appears to be a varient of the T20 shoulder fired 60mm mortar developed for the Marines.

 

I don't think the T21E1 designation is correct though, as the Record of Army Ordnance Research and Development describes the T21 mortar as being an adaption of the 60mm mortar tube and the firing mechanism of the Japanese T10 mortar. The T22 was a further development of that item with a better firing mechanism. Apparently, the T21 and T22 eventually became the T18E6, which in turn was refined and standardized as the M19 trigger fired mortar.

 

The T20 used a spring recoil mechanism and the barrel can be seen recoiling in the rear housing in the first bit of video. There seems to be some differences in the bipod and mount in all of the various photos but the basic weapon still looks the same. In the disassembly photos below, it's interesting that the launcher seems to have a single monopod spring mount with two feet on a crossbar at the bottom, much like the monopod used with the current 85mm Carl Gustav RR employed by U.S. Special Forces.

 

According to the R&D Record, one shoulder fired 60mm was observed at a demonstration at Quantico in late 1943. Based on that weapon, Springfield Armory made two of the T20 mortars and submitted them to Aberdeen for further tests. The project was then turned over to the Marine Corps Equipment Board for additional refinements and 100 of the mortars were manufactured for overseas tests. No indication regarding where the additonal 100 were made unfortunately. But I'm pretty sure we're looking at one of those 100 mortars. I don't know of a surviving example but if it's anywhere, it's probably in the vault at Quantico.

 

Scan10021.jpg

 

Scan10022.jpg


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WOW, great find!! What an oddball weapon. Obviously, the Marines in the movie didn't like the recoil either! Another mystery solved.

 

--Ski


In Memory Of......
Pte Harold Griffiths, 1805, 1/6th Manchester Regt, KIA June 4th, 1915 in Gallipoli
Cpl Isaac Judges, 40494, 6th East Yorkshire Regt, KIA October 3rd, 1917 in Ypres
May they rest in peace.....

MSgt - USAF Retired

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Hi Ordnance

Thanks for the T20 mortar ID. It worried the heck out of me that it did not seem to fit anything I had seen. I'll bet that thing was worse that a PIAT to shoot. Don't misunderstand, I think the PIAT filled a necessary role at the time just a bear to shoot.

 

Also thanks for info the T21/22 to T18E6. I wondered why the T18E6 was not covered Canfield's book as it is very thorough.

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I love that caveat "It is recognized that the heavy recoil of this weapon puts a severe strain on the operator." I would bet they did not have many volunteers to carry and fire that thing! With its recoil cocking, it reminds me of the British PIAT.

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Now that is something you do not see everyday. Interesting discussion.


Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

donation2017.gif

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif


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