LtRGFRANK Posted October 26, 2009 Share #26 Posted October 26, 2009 unmarked 04: I have one of these unmarked ones also. This is the style that has the rear part spot welded on. Speculation is early WWI USMC to a repair for the "1st" pattern unsupported one. There are those who say the unsupported is a surplus store model???? All I know is I like mine. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtRGFRANK Posted October 26, 2009 Share #27 Posted October 26, 2009 Thanks for showing them off, Paul. The USMC grouping is very nice. Would you add a bit more about the wood filler in the WWI shovels? Is this a feature unique to the WWI shovels? Thanks, Mike I think the wood filler/wedges are all WWI. The dated WWII ones don't have that feature. Better machinery to squeese the opening shut and tighten around the handle. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Boghots Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share #28 Posted October 26, 2009 AH! Another shovel fan. Few points. The wood filler are actually wood wedges. Like you drive in the handle of an Axe Etc. They were driven in on either side of the handle to keep it tight. Now on the ones you call USMC. Is that the color of the paint or another feature that makes them USMC. I have about every shade of green on mine but I think a lot has been repainted. Robert Hi Robert, I started quivering the other day when you made your great shovel posting !! - It's nice to know there are other recovering shovel addicts out there, and this is good therapy. As far as USMC examples, I only have the one shovel that I've come to that determination of, and I reached it as a combination of the provenance of obtaining it directly from the veteran's son, along with the helmet of matching color. It's difficult for a photographer of my limited skill to capture, but USMC forest green is a pretty distinct shade; side by side comparison of the helmet to other helmets (plus the forest green repaint showing on the straps), and the shovel to other shovels and to the repainted USMC helmet, have influenced my thinking. Period, unrestored vehicles and equipment also show the same color. - Capt. Augustine being an engineer, was in a unit that probably had better access to paint than others may have had, too. But like I mentioned along with the Augustine / USMC shovel pictures, it appears to only have the paint applied at the time of mfg. which is dull forest green in appearance, identical to their vehicle and equipment shade - Complicating my already complicated theory is that if Ames ever had a NOM contract for shovels, I've never seen one, and Alec Tulkoff doesn't mention any either. So unless someone has other info. supporting my theory, it's just my own hot air at this point !! Best regards to you Robert, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meatcan Posted October 26, 2009 Share #29 Posted October 26, 2009 hey Paul - great shovel collection and display! cool stuff. I was wondering if perhaps that darker forest green color might be the result of a CCC contract run for shovels? I have no idea; I'm just tossing that out there. :think: Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbarrel Posted October 26, 2009 Share #30 Posted October 26, 2009 hey Paul - great shovel collection and display! cool stuff. I was wondering if perhaps that darker forest green color might be the result of a CCC contract run for shovels? I have no idea; I'm just tossing that out there. :think: Terry Oh, no! Please, guys, don't do that. The way things travel on the net, the next thing we know is that somebody knows for a fact that that forest green color shovels are not GI; that they are the result of a CCC contract run for shovels... :crying: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Boghots Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share #31 Posted October 26, 2009 hey Paul - great shovel collection and display! cool stuff. I was wondering if perhaps that darker forest green color might be the result of a CCC contract run for shovels? I have no idea; I'm just tossing that out there. :think: Terry Hi Terry, The one thing I've learned over the years is to "never say never". About the time I think I have something figured out, somebody publishes something that changes what I thought I knew !! - As for this shovel, it's in very lightly used condition and shows no sign of repaint or paint-over. And with the 1942 Ames mfg. date, I'm not even sure that the 3-C's were still operational or would have had enough priority to get a specialized piece of new equipment like an entreching shovel - Most of their work was with a fullsize #2 shovel. Best regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted October 27, 2009 Share #32 Posted October 27, 2009 Brit 03: Paul: I snagged one of these at a T.M.C.A. Show in Dallas years ago; it had been used in concrete work and showed it, but still solid for $20.00. Some time later, some W.W.I buffs came by my tables to check out my wares, noticed the Shovel, and asked to see it. They then assumed the "T-Handle Psycho" look and proceeded to tell me that what I had was the predecessor to the M1910, the M1903. I refused all offers to take it off my hands, and still have it (below, next to an M1910). It is pictured in one of the early training manuals on the M1910 Equipment; I don't have a pic of this, but will throw one up as soon as I have it. I also have a near new M1910, painted "Marine green", but the shaft and T-grip are heavier than any of the other ones, and it has an Ordnance "Flaming Bomb" stamped into one of the T-grip ends. Any insight into this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Boghots Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share #33 Posted October 27, 2009 Paul: I snagged one of these at a T.M.C.A. Show in Dallas years ago; it had been used in concrete work and showed it, but still solid for $20.00. Some time later, some W.W.I buffs came by my tables to check out my wares, noticed the Shovel, and asked to see it. They then assumed the "T-Handle Psycho" look and proceeded to tell me that what I had was the predecessor to the M1910, the M1903. I refused all offers to take it off my hands, and still have it (below, next to an M1910). It is pictured in one of the early training manuals on the M1910 Equipment; I don't have a pic of this, but will throw one up as soon as I have it. I also have a near new M1910, painted "Marine green", but the shaft and T-grip are heavier than any of the other ones, and it has an Ordnance "Flaming Bomb" stamped into one of the T-grip ends. Any insight into this?? Man, I've got to think that '03 shovel is what the real shovel-heads call the "Holy Grail" ! As for the Marine Green with the ord. bomb & the color change, that would make good sense along the lines of Tolkoff's statement that most WW2 T-Handles appear to have been acquired through the army. - Is it socket marked "Ames" and dated ? Good hearing from you, 'Flage Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted October 27, 2009 Share #34 Posted October 27, 2009 Man, I've got to think that '03 shovel is what the real shovel-heads call the "Holy Grail" ! As for the Marine Green with the ord. bomb & the color change, that would make good sense along the lines of Tolkoff's statement that most WW2 T-Handles appear to have been acquired through the army. - Is it socket marked "Ames" and dated ? Good hearing from you, 'Flage Paul "Shovel-Head"...a name is born Sounds like some kind of- uuuh...old motorcycle engine... Nope- Got a number of "Ames" and "Wood" date-stamped T-handles, but this one bears no stampings, save for a deep "U.S." on the socket neck, and one on the shaft. Time to burn another roll of film on some more close-up shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGM (ret.) Posted October 27, 2009 Share #35 Posted October 27, 2009 Now I'm hooked! Here's a couple of happy snaps of the wooden wedges on either side of the head of a shovel I recently got. I also included a close-up of the T-handle which seems to show that this shovel was never painted. (If it was, I can't show how that was done without getting any paint into the joint.) I'm just starting to venture into US uniforms that pre-date WWII, so I have a lot to learn. So, if I understand correctly, these should date the manufacture to WWI (?). Can anyone offer a range of manufacture years like from about 19__ to about 19__ ? What about the dated shovels? Is there a generally accepted period when those were made (maybe an earliest observed date)? What about the Ordnance symbol on the end of the T handle - any dating info on that? Great stuff! Thanks to everyone who's added to this one. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Boghots Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share #36 Posted October 27, 2009 Now I'm hooked! Here's a couple of happy snaps of the wooden wedges on either side of the head of a shovel I recently got. I also included a close-up of the T-handle which seems to show that this shovel was never painted. (If it was, I can't show how that was done without getting any paint into the joint.) I'm just starting to venture into US uniforms that pre-date WWII, so I have a lot to learn. So, if I understand correctly, these should date the manufacture to WWI (?). Can anyone offer a range of manufacture years like from about 19__ to about 19__ ? What about the dated shovels? Is there a generally accepted period when those were made (maybe an earliest observed date)? What about the Ordnance symbol on the end of the T handle - any dating info on that? Great stuff! Thanks to everyone who's added to this one. Mike Mike, In my opinion, that would be a textbook WW1 shovel - big problem is, I don't actually have a textbook !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGM (ret.) Posted October 27, 2009 Share #37 Posted October 27, 2009 In my opinion, that would be a textbook WW1 shovel - big problem is, I don't actually have a textbook !! Ha!! That's my problem too, Paul! No textbook... However, I think that with all the experience here "we don' need no stinkin' textbook!" Just the collective wisdom and shared observations by the forum members will get the job done. I'm pretty sure that between you and Robert, the two of you have posted more T-handled shovels in the last couple of days then I've seen in all the reference books in my library (and I have a pretty big library). I'm guessing that when added together everybody out there in USMF Land knows just about everything there is to know about these shovels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Apathy Posted October 27, 2009 Share #38 Posted October 27, 2009 Hi Bogshots ( Paul ) and fellow contributors, , here are my plans for the M-1910 shovel, it states 1910 and redrawn in 1918 and then marked ' obsolete ', if you take a look at the top of the drawings there is a drawing of the two pieces of filler and the shape and dimensions, below that it states ' FILLER, Two white pine or poplar to be driven into the blade ' The plans are 1:1, ie if you lay a shovel over the plans they are matching dimensions Cheers ( Lewis ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtRGFRANK Posted October 27, 2009 Share #39 Posted October 27, 2009 now thats quite a set of plans. No arguing with them. Now find a set for the other patterns and we will have the holy grail of shovels. Great job Lewis. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Apathy Posted October 27, 2009 Share #40 Posted October 27, 2009 now thats quite a set of plans. No arguing with them. Now find a set for the other patterns and we will have the holy grail of shovels. Great job Lewis. Robert Hi Robert, thanks, for the thanks I am sure we will meet on another thread shortly. :thumbsup: usually do. :thumbsup: Cheers ( Lewis ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Boghots Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share #41 Posted October 28, 2009 Hello Lewis, Thanks for posting those drawings ! - It's always fun to see that sort of stuff. If it comes to writing "The Book", you've got the jump on factual data - I'm still just pokin' holes in the air with my finger ! Best regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Apathy Posted October 28, 2009 Share #42 Posted October 28, 2009 Hello Lewis, Thanks for posting those drawings ! - It's always fun to see that sort of stuff. If it comes to writing "The Book", you've got the jump on factual data - I'm still just pokin' holes in the air with my finger ! Best regards, Paul Hi Paul, thanks for your thanks, just happened to be in the right place at the right time when I got the plans, great when you find such items. Cheers ( Lewis ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Romantic Posted October 28, 2009 Share #43 Posted October 28, 2009 Paul: I snagged one of these at a T.M.C.A. Show in Dallas years ago; it had been used in concrete work and showed it, but still solid for $20.00. Some time later, some W.W.I buffs came by my tables to check out my wares, noticed the Shovel, and asked to see it. They then assumed the "T-Handle Psycho" look and proceeded to tell me that what I had was the predecessor to the M1910, the M1903. I refused all offers to take it off my hands, and still have it (below, next to an M1910). It is pictured in one of the early training manuals on the M1910 Equipment; I don't have a pic of this, but will throw one up as soon as I have it. I also have a near new M1910, painted "Marine green", but the shaft and T-grip are heavier than any of the other ones, and it has an Ordnance "Flaming Bomb" stamped into one of the T-grip ends. Any insight into this?? The Army's intrenching tools were tested in 1905 and adopted the following year so there was no "M1903". That designation is the result of collector ignorance on these early tools. Your shovel has been suggested as being of British origin in WWII. But it could be one of the trial shovels made in 1905. The shovel adopted in 1905 is identical to the M1910. Yes, please post the photo from the manual as it will shed more light on the subject. From what I understand with shovels that have the flaming bomb stamped on the T handle is that it's pre WW I. All I have viewed have the notches near the blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earlymb Posted October 29, 2009 Share #44 Posted October 29, 2009 Your shovel has been suggested as being of British origin in WWII. But it could be one of the trial shovels made in 1905. The shovel adopted in 1905 is identical to the M1910. I have one of those too and it never came clear exactly what it is. Any lead is greatly appreciated! :thumbsup: From what I understand with shovels that have the flaming bomb stamped on the T handle is that it's pre WW I. All I have viewed have the notches near the blade. I have 2 of those; I'll have to check if they have the notches. Greetz David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenwfarrell Posted November 2, 2009 Share #45 Posted November 2, 2009 Hi, I have one with a letter ' B ' or ' 8' on one end of the wooden T- Handle any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted November 3, 2009 Share #46 Posted November 3, 2009 I think that B or 8 is a smeared ordnance bomb. If so its WW1 in all probablilty as the ordnance corps procured them for the Army in WW1 but not WW2. I seriously doubt any were made for the CCC as there were piles in storage still from WW1. If they came from storage for the CCC (a possibility) why waste paint on something that was already painted when there was a depression going on. I do wish someone would do some serious work on the CCC. It is such an important aspect of the WW2 Army in many ways, yet pretty much ignored. And as I say this it looks like the American experience on tonight is about them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Boghots Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share #47 Posted November 3, 2009 I second "jgawne"s comments on all points. - I do have one WW2 Ames that has 5 very small single stamped characters on one handle end; can't say for sure, but look like the normal last initial & last four of a service number, army style. Small size stampings, including the ord' bomb, are seldom very clear on end-grain wood fibre. I'll have to look for the next showing of the CCC episode on American Experience. - I had relatives and acquaintances that jumped at the opportunity during the depression to become a part of that organization. We often here of programs that may be modeled after the "3-C's", but nowadays overlooked as an essential element of its success, was the military nature of the organization. Chain of command, uniform standards, and the use of WW1 equipment itself. Many a young man thrived at the chance to be a part of something, earn a living, and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. - I think there was a strong feeling of espirit de' corps. - Probably not without its flaws at the time, but I doubt there is the will nor capability from Washington, D.C. to currently match the level of accomplishments for individuals or for the good of the country that the CCC achieved in the 30's. Currently, the T-handle shovel couldn't be issued as it was also an effective weapon . Best regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGM (ret.) Posted November 3, 2009 Share #48 Posted November 3, 2009 Not to take this topic off on a tanget, but the US CCC was just one of a wave of national socialist organizations that came about in the 1930's. The CCC bears a very strong resemblance to the German Deutsche Arbeitsfront (DAF) and national labor projects of the Italian PNF, not to mention many others. It is perhaps a good thing that there is not "the will nor the capability from Washington, DC" to replicate the CCC today. Frankly, I have more than enough involvement by the government in my life as it is. The last thing I think we need is organizations that glorify and capitalize on the government's capacity to provide all things to all people at the expense of those who actually create the wealth that would be expended. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone Posted November 3, 2009 Share #49 Posted November 3, 2009 The Ordnance mark on my T handle: Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenwfarrell Posted November 6, 2009 Share #50 Posted November 6, 2009 The Ordnance mark on my T handle:Tim Yes, that looks the same. Am I wrong in the idea that it might have been used WW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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