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Has it come to this????


willysmb44
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From a recent spectator battle in California. Take a good look at the Jeep:

http://picasaweb.google.com/442ndrct/MTH20...848297206568722

They have their unit website on the side of the vehicle in a display battle? :pinch:

Come on, I can sort of understand the license plate if they drove there and it's screwed into place (I use quick disconnect straps on mine and remove the plate at shows, but I know others don’t), but a decal on the side of the Jeep for their website?

Sorry, but if I saw that, I'd probably gather my stuff and leave. And people wonder why so many folks sneer on re-enactors... :ermm:

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LOL! I'm sorry, but I think it is kind of funny myself.

 

This was obviously a public event (either that, or Southern California has been invaded by Nazis!). From what many reenactors have posted on here, there is a big difference between the level of authenticity at public and show events vs. private events.

 

Perhaps they were using it as a recruiting tool, or just to direct those with a sense of history to their website.

 

Looking at their website, www.442ndrct.com , they look to be a fairly active group.

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Even if it is a magnetic sign, it is as FARBY as all hell and has no business being there. But looking at the get-up of the GIs in the jeep, unless they are doing 442nd stateside, they should, from the research I've done, be in wools. So it really doesn't suprise me at all. This goes up there with some of the top ten Farbiest things I've seen. I doubt this is for a parade, unless this is a parade for german reenactors hiding in the grass and trees of southern california. Even so are we not trying to show how the soldiers looked during war and not what a bunch of guys playing ww2 army look like in 2009?

 

-Josh

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It's pretty offensive, actually. It not only demeans reenactors that try to maintain an ultimate level of authenticity every time they are in public, but it also disrespects veterans as well.

 

I'd say "to each their own" and "it's a free country," but I think someone should say something to them. I mean, how far is too far?

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That makes my head hurt!

 

It looks like a magnetic sign just slapped on... and it doesn't appear to be a parade of the type I've ever seen or participated in. From the rest of the photos in the album it looks more like a large public display type event.

 

But just for comparison, here's a better shot:

http://picasaweb.google.com/442ndrct/MTH20...848149054872786

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

Hey, I'm all for being realistic but this looks like a public display to me. They're in recruiting mode and just letting folks know who they are. I'm good with it. I am familiar the guys and the group and they're gtg.

 

Rock

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Hey, I'm all for being realistic but this looks like a public display to me. They're in recruiting mode and just letting folks know who they are. I'm good with it. I am familiar the guys and the group and they're gtg.

 

Rock

 

I agree, I think that some of the more angry postings here were a bit hastily done, and as there was no evidence saying it was a reenactment, stick to this easy to remember phrase: Assume - Rear End U Me

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Gents--- I just have to ask---as a guy who doesn't understand re-enacting so everything I know is from the pictures I see here on the forum and the discussions I read---what is it you guys do and why?

 

I kinda understand the guys in Europe rolling around in the 2AD half tracks and convoying through the countryside---that would be fun even in civies---but I need your insights into the rest of the deal...

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I was hesitant to post this in the first place, as you never know how such things will be received. I don’t know these guys and have nothing personally against any of them. If you look at the rest of the photos you can tell this Jeep was rolling into a spectator battle. But seeing the photo just made my jaw hit the floor and a utterance of “You have got to be #@$%ing me.”

I have a few things like this that show up on my Jeep at shows. Take a good look at this photo of my ride at a car show:

CarShow08011.jpg

The sticker above the rear wheel well is a “Proudly served – 2nd Infantry Division” and the one next to it is a photo tribute to a WW2 vet friend of mine who passed in 1999. This kind of show is the only time those magnets get placed on the Jeep. The sign on the windshield is a description of the Jeep itself and it does often stay with the Jeep at many shows when it’s just sitting there on display. The thing on the windshield glass is the vehicle number for the car show, and only there for that event. When it sits at any other kind of shows, it has that sign sitting where you see it and that’s it. I even remove my license plate from the back end and stow it away for the duration. Even in parades, someone will invariably hand me a 50-star flag, and it goes right into the glove box (and in fact I have a few small 48-star flags of the type you see at parades just in case someone presses me to have a flag). The same goes for stickers or magnets from events I attend with the Jeep. I figure if it didn’t exist in 1944-45, it should be in or on my Jeep (reproduction items notwithstanding, of course).

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I agree, I think that some of the more angry postings here were a bit hastily done, and as there was no evidence saying it was a reenactment, stick to this easy to remember phrase: Assume - Rear End U Me
I confirmed with a member of that group that they did indeed go into the spectator battle with the signs in place. I’m quite sure they won’t be doing it again from his reaction to it.

I have a feeling we’ll be seeing this more and more, especially with larger numbers of smaller re-enacting groups popping up every day. Tim Scherrer referred to this as the “Balkanization of the hobby,” and I think he’s right. So many small groups who want nothing to do with all the other small groups.

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Okay, here's my potshot at them - none of the "GIs" look AJA to me in either of the two photos with the jeep in question. And for those of us who actually know the hx of the bn/RCT, and how AJAs were treated during WW II, that is, quite frankly, an INSULT.

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo
Okay, here's my potshot at them - none of the "GIs" look AJA to me in either of the two photos with the jeep in question. And for those of us who actually know the hx of the bn/RCT, and how AJAs were treated during WW II, that is, quite frankly, an INSULT.

 

Beggars can't be choosers as far as race goes. It is against the law to discriminate against individuals and exclude them from participating in your group because of their ethnicity, or in this case; lack of ethnicity. I have seen black, hispanic and asian German reenactors. I have seen mixed race 101st and 82nd AB guys and have seen white guys in the 442nd.

 

It would be an insult for nobody to represent the 442nd than to have a two man all Japanese unit just for authenticity sake. You can't have all 20 year old skinny guys in reenacting just as you can't have all Japanese guys in the 442 reenactment group.

 

ROck

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Gee, so many comments were on some 100% full-restoration jeep sullied with a magnetic sticker on the side. I thought all re-enactor type people were interested in history and authenticity. My error. It will never happen again.

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Couldn't help but notice the absolutely unnecessary Airborne guy in their unit photos. 82nd, so I guess it could sort of fit in but... why in god's name is there an Airborne guy in every reenactment photo I see, regardless of any unit specific intent? 29th Div...gotta have a guy in a jump suit...1st Inf Div...there's a guy strutting around somewhere with jump boots...

Forget the magnet, how about making an effort to let anyone watching know that the war was not fought with paratroopers attached to every other unit in the army!

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/442ndrct/MTH20...848893271215730

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audacia cum prudentia
Gents--- I just have to ask---as a guy who doesn't understand re-enacting so everything I know is from the pictures I see here on the forum and the discussions I read---what is it you guys do and why?

 

I kinda understand the guys in Europe rolling around in the 2AD half tracks and convoying through the countryside---that would be fun even in civies---but I need your insights into the rest of the deal...

 

 

Thank you, the compliment is much appreciated, in answer to your question it would be POINTLESS even in civies, to be as authentic and educational and commemorative as you can be is your ONLY legitimate justification for re-enacting in my opinion, but I agree it has to be fun too,

 

ALSO WE ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO DO IT IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME AS THE RIGHT UNIT AND UNLIKE THE OTHER POST WHICH SAYS SMALL GROUPS DON'T WISSH TO WORK WITH SMALL GROUPS, ALL RE-ENACTORS AND VEHICLE OWNERS AS LONG AS THEY MEET OUR AUTHENTICITY REQUIREMENTS ARE WELCOME TO ATTEND OUR EVENTS

 

On to the post, I do not like the "WWW.COM",

 

what next $ 20 coporate sponsorship to put "WWW.FILTERS SUPPLIED BY PEP-BOYS" stickers on your jeep ???

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo
Couldn't help but notice the absolutely unnecessary Airborne guy in their unit photos. 82nd, so I guess it could sort of fit in but... why in god's name is there an Airborne guy in every reenactment photo I see, regardless of any unit specific intent? 29th Div...gotta have a guy in a jump suit...1st Inf Div...there's a guy strutting around somewhere with jump boots...

Forget the magnet, how about making an effort to let anyone watching know that the war was not fought with paratroopers attached to every other unit in the army!

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/442ndrct/MTH20...848893271215730

 

True, there wouldn't be paratroopers in every picture but there were elite units attached to every Army in the ETO at one point or another.

 

The 517th was attached to three different Army groups during it's tenure.

 

The 551st at least two.

 

The 509th at least two.

 

The 505th RCT was dismantled after Italy and dispersed to the Dragoon operation.

 

The 504th at Anzio.

 

Paratroopers were in action in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Southern France, Normandy and all through the war throughout all Army Groups. Although not in significant enough numbers to justify their appearance in every Reenactment photo :rolleyes:

 

On the other hand, impressions are expensive so you wear what you have.

 

Rock

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True, there wouldn't be paratroopers in every picture but there were elite units attached to every Army in the ETO at one point or another.

 

The 517th was attached to three different Army groups during it's tenure.

 

The 551st at least two.

 

The 509th at least two.

 

The 505th RCT was dismantled after Italy and dispersed to the Dragoon operation.

 

The 504th at Anzio.

 

Paratroopers were in action in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Southern France, Normandy and all through the war throughout all Army Groups. Although not in significant enough numbers to justify their appearance in every Reenactment photo :rolleyes:

 

On the other hand, impressions are expensive so you wear what you have.

 

Rock

 

Paratroops were not nearly as ubiquitous as one would believe from casually observing photos from / live reenactment events.

Just kinda seems strange to me that the people who rail about authenticity and respond with such pure outrage at the lack of it, can overlook the random guy in his repro jump suit that seems to be all over the place.

I don't care one way or another what you call it -- fake is fake, no matter how authentic you try to make it look, but that's a pretty glaring inconsistency there -- facts is facts, and the fact is that there weren't Airborne troops traipsing all over every single battlefield in WWII in M42 Jump uniforms. Pretty sure if you popped up at a Bulge reenactment in repro USMC cammies you'd get heckled and harassed by the other reenactors there, no?

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Pretty sure if you popped up at a Bulge reenactment in repro USMC cammies you'd get heckled and harassed by the other reenactors there, no?
I wonder about that. If you go to Indiantown Gap event, you’ll see plenty of unit impressions for units that weren’t in the Bulge at all. I know there have been 2nd Ranger and 1st SSF units there on several occasions and I doubt anyone said anything. Events are all about the numbers.

I also have photos in a magazine article from a British event a few years ago showing Marines fighting SS forces in a spectator battle. Suddenly, I can hear John Belushi in ‘Animal House’ yelling, “Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?”

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I wonder about that. If you go to Indiantown Gap event, you’ll see plenty of unit impressions for units that weren’t in the Bulge at all. I know there have been 2nd Ranger and 1st SSF units there on several occasions and I doubt anyone said anything. Events are all about the numbers.

I also have photos in a magazine article from a British event a few years ago showing Marines fighting SS forces in a spectator battle. Suddenly, I can hear John Belushi in ‘Animal House’ yelling, “Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?”

 

 

Don't you know... that was the Second Battle of Belleau Wood!

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Even if it is a magnetic sign, it is as FARBY as all hell and has no business being there. But looking at the get-up of the GIs in the jeep, unless they are doing 442nd stateside, they should, from the research I've done, be in wools. So it really doesn't suprise me at all. This goes up there with some of the top ten Farbiest things I've seen. I doubt this is for a parade, unless this is a parade for german reenactors hiding in the grass and trees of southern california. Even so are we not trying to show how the soldiers looked during war and not what a bunch of guys playing ww2 army look like in 2009?

 

-Josh

 

Lots of WW-II reenactors are too old and too heavy/out of shape and, by your same argument, shouldn't be participating. To my non-reenactor eyes too old, too heavy, too much hair, trendy mustaches and beards, looking too rested, and too clean, etc. look just as FARBy. Reenactors are already making these concessions to reality so...what does it really matter if there's a website plaque on the vehicle.

 

I'd lighten up a bit and just not get so wrapped around the axel about that stuff. The whole idea is to have fun so just go out there and have fun without sweating the small crap.

 

Again, these are just my personal thoughts.

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Lots of WW-II reenactors are too old and too heavy/out of shape and, by your same argument, shouldn't be participating. To my non-reenactor eyes too old, too heavy, too much hair, trendy mustaches and beards, looking too rested, and too clean, etc. look just as FARBy. Reenactors are already making these concessions to reality so...what does it really matter if there's a website plaque on the vehicle.

 

I'd lighten up a bit and just not get so wrapped around the axel about that stuff. The whole idea is to have fun so just go out there and have fun without sweating the small crap.

 

Again, these are just my personal thoughts.

 

 

Reenacting ultimately comes down to details.

 

If it wasnt about the details, it would simply be milsim dressup time in its purest form - which in many ways would be akin to what paintball or some airsoft is.

 

The slippery slope fallacy shouldnt be so hastily applied. A little farb, or failure to be masochistic by starving oneself or wallowing in mud, or staying awake for days on end prior to an event just to to "look just right" does not and should not justify disregard for attention to major details.

 

Context is also very important. The context and resulting details of what is being presented have everything to do with what is acceptable. Whether that mean car show display with website magnets, "immersive" battle reenactment, garrison impression - will have an impact on what details are appropriate. One "look" simply does not fit all. Clean, Dirty, Fat, Thin, Old, Young...

 

Its about doing what you can with the details to fit the context.

 

Historical Reenactment is a very different animal than open ended milsim. The details make it so. We control what we can, uniforms, equipment, knowledge - physique to a degree. I wont give anybody a hard time about ethnicity or age with regards to an impression as thats beyond their control. Basic easily controlled details should be paid attention to, its a simple failure on the part of the reenactor when they dont.

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Reenacting ultimately comes down to details.

 

If it wasnt about the details, it would simply be milsim dressup time in its purest form - which in many ways would be akin to what paintball or some airsoft is.

 

The slippery slope fallacy shouldnt be so hastily applied. A little farb, or failure to be masochistic by starving oneself or wallowing in mud, or staying awake for days on end prior to an event just to to "look just right" does not and should not justify disregard for attention to major details.

 

Context is also very important. The context and resulting details of what is being presented have everything to do with what is acceptable. Whether that mean car show display with website magnets, "immersive" battle reenactment, garrison impression - will have an impact on what details are appropriate. One "look" simply does not fit all. Clean, Dirty, Fat, Thin, Old, Young...

 

Its about doing what you can with the details to fit the context.

 

Historical Reenactment is a very different animal than open ended milsim. The details make it so. We control what we can, uniforms, equipment, knowledge - physique to a degree. I wont give anybody a hard time about ethnicity or age with regards to an impression as thats beyond their control. Basic easily controlled details should be paid attention to, its a simple failure on the part of the reenactor when they dont.

 

Look...I know my views are not popular with the majority who frequent the reenacting subject area but I think you've given a cop-out reply. I agree that it's about the details and fitting the historical context. That's the entire gist of my comment. It's about ALL the details and the historical content, not just those that aren't inconvenient.

 

I've read numerous posts right here harping on the need for complete and absolute accuracy, right down to not only defending smoking, but smoking the historically correct cigarette. However, going to that level of detail dictates that accuracy in the area of the age and physique of the reenactors MUST closely resemble those being portrayed.

 

Either you demand complete accuracy or you don't worry about it. If it's a completely accurate representation of a combat unit, right down to the smoking bit (as some here have maintained is necessary), then the old and overweight guys are "out of context" and detract from the representation and it becomes just a group of guys dressed up to play Army.

 

By the way, I've never included race or ethnicity in any of my comments. Men of many races and ethnicities served in the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Forces. Please do not try to turn my comment into something it's not.

 

Older and/or out of shape guys might be believable in a reenaction of a non-combattant 1stSgt or a cook in a mess tent or a retired guy dressing up for a parade or such. However, that dog just don't hunt when one is portraying combat troops, which seems to be a favorite subject for reenactors, at least on this subject area, judging by the posted photos. This is particularly true when one is portraying elite combat troops such as airborne, rangers, SF, Marines, etc.

 

If one isn't concerned about complete accuracy, including age and physical appearance, stuff like the website stickers on a jeep shouldn't bother one. Either one only insists on strict accuracy requirements, not only uniforms and equipment, but also physique, etc, or one don't get worked up about inaccuracy or, as others have said, FARB.

 

OK, I've said my piece/provided my thoughts. Thanks for giving me the soap box for a couple minutes.

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Manchu Warrior

I have to admit I never knew reenactors took things so seriously. And your units are most likely more historically accurate then my National Guard unit was.

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I don't get the whole re-enactor thing either, at least most of it. Oh I've heard that they do it for the troops and educating the public regarding important history and those points are wonderful, especially when they do it at public events. It's great. I was at an outdoor show last month and there were about 6 civil war looking guys marching around... kinda neat and it adds to the whole atmosphere.

 

But on the flip side for example, when I see someone build a "hootch" and show guys hanging out like they are in 1968 Southeast Asia, I just try to wonder what they get from such pretending. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming what they call fun, I just don't understand it. And in the past when I try to ask about it, replies seem VERY defensive to say the least.

 

Of course you also hear all the stories about power struggles, etc. but you'll get that with any club.... car clubs, shooting clubs and the like. Oh well, harmless fun. Maybe I'll get a better understanding one day.

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