M4 Bayonet on M1 Rifle

[paul1440]

Can the M4 knife-bayonet be attached to the M1 Garand? The reason I ask is that I am looking at the TO&E for a parachute infantry rifle company dated 1 Aug 1944 and it calls for 130 Bayonet, knife, M4, with scabbard, M8A1. 130 matches up with the total for the 49 M1 carbines and 81 M1 rifles.

[robinb]

The M4 bayonet will not fit the M1 rifle. They were issued to be used as trench knives since by 1944 the M3 knife was no longer in production.

[paul1440]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't think it would. Wonder why per the TO&E the parachute infantry wasn't supposed to get a M1 rifle compatible bayonet? Also the TO&E calls for a M1936 pistol belt with four M1 cartridge pockets per person. I thought I'd still see catridge belts for those equipped with the M1 rifle.

[mpguy80/08]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't think it would. Wonder why per the TO&E the parachute infantry wasn't supposed to get a M1 rifle compatible bayonet? Also the TO&E calls for a M1936 pistol belt with four M1 cartridge pockets per person. I thought I'd still see catridge belts for those equipped with the M1 rifle.

 

If you would have had a M1 rifle (Garand) I'm pretty sure you would have had an M-1 or M1905E1 bayonet for it. Also, your reference to the M1936 belt and four Cartridge pockets might be referring to two possibilities. First, and what I believe is what is being referred to here, is the Magazine pouches for two 15 rd magazines. Secondly, and also a possibility, are the Air Corps Pockets, or Rigger Pouches, which were issued for Normandy, but not used much afterwards. (there are known photos of rigger pouches used during Market Garden, but not many after.) Each pocket could hold four enbloc clips for the M1, or five - 15 round magazines for the M1 or M1A1 Carbine.

 

In the case of the M1 Carbine pockets for two each 15rd magazines, this would result in a load of 120 rds of .30 cal Carbine ammo in eight 15 rd magazines.

 

In the case of the Air Corps Pockets (Rigger Pouches), four pockets would result in 20 fifteen round magazines, resulting in a load of 300 rounds of .30 cal Carbine ammo.

 

In the case of Four Aircorps Pockets, each carrying four enbloc clips of .30-06 ammo for the M1 Rifle (Garand), this would result in a load of 16 eight round clips for a total of 128 rounds. This might be more desirable for a soldier carring an M1 Rifle as the usual M1923 Cartridge belt only carried 80 rounds.

 

In addition to those methods of carrying ammunition, Soldiers would also carry extra ammo in bandoliers, musette bags and M-1 Ammunition mags.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Wayne

[paul1440]

I really wonder at these TO&Es. Like you said, mp, I would think they would issue and M1 bayonet but it clearly says 130 M4s. And yes you are right it refers to the M1 carbine pockets which could hold two 15-round carbine magazines or two Garand enblocs. So it shorts the riflemen by two clips on the belt but as you say extra would be carried other ways. The TO&E also calls out M1A3 carbines or M1A1 carbines. Interesting, and it is dated Aug 1944. When did the M1A3 enter service?

[artu44]

As Robinb told, the M4 bayonet in ETO was used strictly as trench knife cause less than a bunch of carbines with bayonet lug were issued only in PTO when war in Europe was already over.

[Greaser]

TO&E's should be taken with a big spoonful of salt. Remember that they are "ideals" rather than "actuals".

 

For example - http://www.militaryresearch.org/7-11%2026Feb44.pdf TO&E 7-11 dated February 26, 1944 for an Infantry Regiment indicates that there were to be 36 M1919A6 machine guns, with 0 M1919a4's. There were to be 0 M1928/M1/M1a1 Thompson Submachine guns - instead 63 M3 Grease Guns. There were to be 112 M9 bazookas, and 0 M1 or M1a1 bazookas.

 

We all know this simply wasnt the case on 6/6/1944, let alone on 1/1/1945. Its even a stretch for 5/8/1945.

 

Seeing that they are ideals, the TO&E's reflect the thinking going on stateside as somewhat of a wishlist - whether being impacted by the Infantry Board, or Ordnance Department, or Quartermaster - or other factors. It was the latest and greatest stuff on paper, with lots of "substitute standards" being used until exhausted. In the case of some "substitute standards", they may be seen as a superior item in our opinions - like using a cartridge belt versus the M1 ammuntion pouch...

 

 

Chris-