SSI-FWTS FORMER WARTIME ORG INSIGNIA

[VolunteerArmoury]

Unfortunately I have heard of some CIBs awarded to 11 series for just being in country. I'm an 11C so the CIB is a coveted thing to me so it is uneasy to hear about non combat CIBs awarded. Have the ARs clearified the second award of a CIB for serving in Iraq then Afghanistan or vice versa? I have not found reference to or con on that yet one of our guys that was with 3rd Bat 75th has orders awarding a star for his CIB yet the orders may not be IAW AR's. Generally I just see memos blanket awarding the FWTS patch yet I have also seen formal orders. I should know this right off hand but I am not sure if they constitute promotion points or not. Was there an ammedum to ARs that allowed wear of the same SSI on both sleeves or it is officially not IAW ARs even today?

[DM1975]

SSI-FWTS does not count towards promotion points and the CIB can not be awarded twice during the same awarding period. There have only ever been four awarding periods for the CIB and it is clearly spelled out in AR 600-8-22 Only way you can get a star now is to have fought in what was considered the Vietnam awarding period, which lasted until some time in 1996 I believe, or an earlier period (Korea, WWII time periods). Reguardles of number of tours or theaters served in. If they are wearing a star for it then they are in the wrong. The CIB is the award that I am the most proud of. If you backtrack this thread there are a few links that will take you to the regs you need to look at for this info. You can wear the same patch on both sleeves, as long as you rate them. And no memo or orders are needed for a SSI-FWTS that I am aware of. I rate a few different SSI-FWTS' and have no orders or memos.

[DM1975]

Here it is straight out of the AR

 

f. Second and third awards of the CIB are indicated by superimposing 1 and 2 stars respectively, centered at the top

of the badge between the points of the oak wreath. To date, a separate award of the CIB has been authorized for

qualified Soldiers in the following qualifying periods:

(1) World War II (7 December 1941 to 3 September 1945)

(2) The Korean Conflict (27 June 1950 to 27 July 1953).

(3) The Republic of Vietnam Conflict. Service in the Republic of Vietnam conflict (2 March 1961 to 28 March

1973) combined with qualifying service in Laos; Dominican Republic; Korea on the DMZ; El Salvador; Grenada; Joint

Security Area, Panmunjom, Korea; Panama; Southwest Asia Conflict; and Somalia, regardless of whether a Soldier has

served one or multiple tours in any or all of these areas. The Republic of Vietnam Conflict Era officially terminated on

10 March 1995.

(4) War on Terrorism (Afghanistan, Operation ENDURING FREEDOM) and (Iraq, Operation IRAQI FREEDOM).

g. Subsequent awards of the CIB is not authorized for the same qualifying period, as outlined above.

[Jason G]

Further adding to this, less than a week ago I saw an army SSG, in ACU's, with pin on CIB w/1 star. He had done one tour in OIF I, and another in Afganistan. (I enquired). He is an 11B, now on recruiting duty.

 

I wasn't about to tell him that he only 'rated' one CIB. But, I know what that reg. says also.

 

 

You won't find me making that correction tho

[DM1975]

Like I said before, there are lots of soldiers, NCO and officers included that wear whatever they want. I do make on the spot corrections whenever possible but nine out of ten times it falls on deaf ears, even to their commands.

[CNY Militaria]

Like I said before, there are lots of soldiers, NCO and officers included that wear whatever they want. I do make on the spot corrections whenever possible but nine out of ten times it falls on deaf ears, even to their commands.

 

Thats why being a collector and having uniform knowledge in the army is a gift and a curse, we always try to fix what won't be fixed..

[VolunteerArmoury]

A gift and a curse is a good way to put it. I'm always looking at my buddies' uniforms. We have several in our unit that have stars for Somalia, Persian Gulf Part 1, Panama, or Greneda, etc and then an award for the current conflicts however even though it is thought what I thought was IAW ARs which DM1975 confirms, there are orders being cut by S1's one example I know of is that of the 3/75th which though is causing alot of confusing amongst troops. I hate to tell someone to take off an award that they felt there is being worn correctly but we still have to be IAW regs especially those of us in the NCO corps.

 

Wasn't there a period in the 1990's that the supposed "all wise" tried to have the authority for wear of the CIB by non-Infantry advisor veterans from the Vietnam conflict removed? I recall one individual that was an Armour officer though an advisor to an ARVN Infantry battalion which allows his award of the CIB but seems the Army tried to change that around to were he would not be eligible.

 

Gotta love the Army and "deal with the suck."

[gwb123]

Ok, I have a question about the progression of the regs for Former Wartime Service SSIs. Today I often see people with their current SSI also worn as their FWSP such as my unit the 80th which came back last year. During WW2 I understand that you had to be transferred out of that unit in order to wear that patch and I also have a couple of fatigue shirts and other uniforms from the 50's and 60's that only have the current unit patch but with CIBs. Was there a reg at one time covering that you had to be out of the unit that you served in wartime with in order to wear that patch and if so, what occured if you were to transfer back into it later, take the combat patch off? When did it change. I do recall seeing people wearing the same SSI on both sleeves from the 80's to current. Thanks

 

I can't answer for WWII, but in more recent times it is not uncommon to see a soldier wearing the same patch on both left (for current unit) and right (for combat service) shoulders. When I was serving at Fort Hood during the 1970's we had a number of soldiers who had served in the 1st Cav during Vietnam, and through the course of their career had returned to the unit. Given that the patch is so large, it is hard to miss. We used to refer to this as a "1st Cav Sandwich". LOL! Other units that had seen combat, but that were still active, such as the 1st ID, 101st ABN, 82nd ABN also had examples of this. You also saw this with the Special Forces soldiers, many of them who did every thing they could to remain assigned to SF.

 

I am sure that I saw Desert Storm uniforms with the same patch on both soldiers. Now, did these troops rotate out of the unit and then back again? I am thinking that they did not, but merely added the "combat patch" when they rotated home.

 

Getting back to the original question of this thread about wearing patches from other services on US Army fatigues, I have seen USMC and USN patches on Army fatigues. But the darndest thing I ever saw was an OG-107 fatigue shirt with a German Mountain Troop Edelweiss patch on the right shoulder. The name was European and the age of the uniform was about right that it could have been worn by a WWII vet. And every patch on the uniform was stitched right by regulation and it looked right as rain. I wish I could have gotten the background on that one!

 

I will dig for some photos...

[gwb123]

Contemplate this.... A USN SeaBee fatigue shirt with US Army qualification badges. (The SeeBee logo is barely visible on the left pocket.)

 

How is this possible? The SeaBees actively recruit veterans from all services, especially if they have experience with construction trades.

 

I believe this was a Goodwill/ Salvation Army find in Hawaii about 20 years ago. It was stiff with starch.

[gwb123]

A couple examples of "sandwich" fatigues...

 

And yes, as far as I can tell, the 101st Chaplain with the CIB was for real. If you ever hang around these units, you will find Chaplains who entered the Army as an Infantryman, served their tour, returned to divinity school and came back to serve the troops. A record like this gives them quite a bit of credibility with the troops, especially when it comes to "counseling"....

 

The Desert uniform was purchased shortly after Desert Storm at a surplus store. Note the wide collar. Based on when I bought it, I doubt that the soldier ever left the unit. He most likely had it sewn on as soon as he came home.

[Chap15]

A couple examples of "sandwich" fatigues...

 

And yes, as far as I can tell, the 101st Chaplain with the CIB was for real. If you ever hang around these units, you will find Chaplains who entered the Army as an Infantryman, served their tour, returned to divinity school and came back to serve the troops. A record like this gives them quite a bit of credibility with the troops, especially when it comes to "counseling"....

 

Very nice Chaplain jacket. I looked for his name in the Vietnam chaplain history book, but he wasn't there. I have other resources which are packed away. Perhaps he was an infantryman during Korea then a chaplain for Vietnam. While having a CIB does bring credibility with the Soldiers, wearing it as a chaplain in combat may not be a good idea. I knew several chaplains that would wear their Drill SGT or recruiter badges on their BDU's...Not sure if that helped with the Soldiers. Again these were people who had prior service then became a chaplain. A chaplain can earn the EIB but he cannot wear it. Now, chaplains can earn and wear the Combat Action Badge...even though they are non combatants.

[Darktrooper]

That is what I was looking for. At our Infantry Ball In late January I was told I could only wear 4 bars and that I could not wear the GWOTEM and GWOTSM together and my ICM. Even tho I was awarded the GWOTSM while in the NG after Sep 11th and the GWOTEM for OIF I and the ICM for OIF III. When trying to review these regs, in this very website, it was not available. In fact a question about the ACU's was just brought up aboput a month ago but still no updated AR670-1 could be found. I will get these printed up now. Thanks for the info.

 

Horse crap. You are authorized to wear it, its different awarding periods, unless your unit wants to upgrade your GWOTE to the ICM.

 

As for the ACU's, it seems to be commander discretion. In Afghanistan no one was allowed to wear pin on badges on their ACU's (ABN, Air Assault wings, EIB/ CIB). Complete mix of Flags too; Full color, subdued, Full color IR, subdued IR. Now it seems everyone had a brassard (IR patch) too, not just MP's, EOD and Medics had them also. I swear, as soon as you step into a combat zone it becomes Army Suggestion 670-1

[gwb123]

Very nice Chaplain jacket. I looked for his name in the Vietnam chaplain history book, but he wasn't there. I have other resources which are packed away. Perhaps he was an infantryman during Korea then a chaplain for Vietnam. While having a CIB does bring credibility with the Soldiers, wearing it as a chaplain in combat may not be a good idea. I knew several chaplains that would wear their Drill SGT or recruiter badges on their BDU's...Not sure if that helped with the Soldiers. Again these were people who had prior service then became a chaplain. A chaplain can earn the EIB but he cannot wear it. Now, chaplains can earn and wear the Combat Action Badge...even though they are non combatants.

 

About 1975 or so I went on a "familiarization" trip to Ft. Bragg, NC with my ROTC class from Penn State. The stated purpose of such tax payor funded expedtions was to help us become more familiar with Army. If you thought of it as a government sanctioned college road trip using a C-130 to get there, you would be correct.

 

Anyway... I remember us sitting there in the chapel receiving a briefing from one of the base Chaplains. We were actually pretty well behaved for that session and for good reason. I cannot remember a word he said, but I remember him standing there with about four different qualifcation badges on his fatigues, one of them being a Pathfinder badge. I remember thinking "Where did they get this guy?" He was a bit different from the meek and mild church ministers I had known growing up. This guy jumped out of perfectly good airplanes, for crying out loud!

 

Army Chaplains sometimes have to deal with some very tough situations. They guide and counsel troops on everything from severe depression to domestic violence. In an Airborne unit, it helps their credibility if they are also Airborne qualified.

 

Of course a uniform full of badges is not everything. The Chaplain that married my wife and I while in Germany was a 1st Cav vet. I believe he mentioned having to perform over 90 some memorial services in less than six months. Six weeks after arriving in country he and one of his counterparts were crawling on their hands and knees to avoid some rather heavy enemy fire. He looked over at his peer and saw he was laughing like a crazy man. Thinking he had lost his mind, he asked him what was so funny. In between rounds he shouted back "When we were practicing this at Chaplain's school two months ago I never thought I'd be doing this!"

 

If you ever find the story on the owner of the above shirt, please let me know. My email address is listed with my signature. Thanks!

[Spathologist]

I can't answer for WWII, but in more recent times it is not uncommon to see a soldier wearing the same patch on both left (for current unit) and right (for combat service) shoulders.

 

I usually wear the USARSO patch from my time in El Salvador as my SSI-WTS, and wore it as my SSI when I subsequently transferred to Panama. I twasn't unusual at that time, as many Just Cause vets were still stationed there and had the same setup.

 

I had the most fun with it when I was assigned to the School of the Americas, which has as its SSI the same design as that of USARSO, but with the colors reversed. So I had the same patch design on both shoulders, but with the colors inverted. That earned a few double-takes!

[bootsandbooks]

A couple examples of "sandwich" fatigues...

 

And yes, as far as I can tell, the 101st Chaplain with the CIB was for real. If you ever hang around these units, you will find Chaplains who entered the Army as an Infantryman, served their tour, returned to divinity school and came back to serve the troops. A record like this gives them quite a bit of credibility with the troops, especially when it comes to "counseling"....

 

The original owner of the uniform you posted is Colonel (Retired) Lyle Metzler.

 

Infantry Captain Metzler commanded a company in the 3rd Battalion 22nd Infantry 25th Division in Vietnam in the later part of 1970, arrivng about the time I departed. When the 3/22 returned to CONUS in April 1971 those members with less than 9 or 10 months in country transfered to one of the remaining units which included the 101st, Americal, and 5th Inf (Mech).

 

The double 101st patched fatigue shirt with the Major rank and Chaplin branch would presumably be from a second assignment stateside to the 101st.

 

I do not know at what point Lyle changed from Infantry Branch to Chapalin, when he attended Jump and Pathfinder Schools, or when he was first assigned to Special Forces.

 

I last saw him at a 22nd Infantry Regiment Society reunion about 10 years. He was in the Reserves; his assigment then was Chaplain to the U S Army Civil Affairs Command (Abn).

 

He retired with 33 years total service and two Vietnam tours. His civilian occupation was school teacher, 5th grade history as I recall.

 

M C Toyer