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SSI-FWTS FORMER WARTIME ORG INSIGNIA


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Today at work, I saw an US Army troop wearing on his ACUs the 2nd Marine Division SSI on his right shoulder. My questions for this august body of knowledge is; what SSI does a former Airman wear if he transfers to the Army? Although the Air Forces still exist, I can't picture showing up at Fort Benning wearing an 8th or 9th Air Force SSI. (Hmmm a modern made 9th Air Force Bouillon SSI with an ACU background. Boy wouldn't that mess up future collectors!)

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Bob Hudson
Today at work, I saw an US Army troop wearing on his ACUs the 2nd Marine Division SSI on his right shoulder. My questions for this august body of knowledge is; what SSI does a former Airman wear if he transfers to the Army? Although the Air Forces still exist, I can't picture showing up at Fort Benning wearing an 8th or 9th Air Force SSI. (Hmmm a modern made 9th Air Force Bouillon SSI with an ACU background. Boy wouldn't that mess up future collectors!)

 

I believe those soldiers were attached the Marines in a combat zone because the former wartime service patch is only for service as a member of the US Army.

 

28-17. Shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service (SSI-FWTS)

 

a. General. Authorization to wear a shoulder sleeve insignia indicating former wartime service applies only to soldiers who are assigned to U.S. Army units that meet all the following criteria. Soldiers who were prior members of other Services that participated in operations that would otherwise meet the criteria below are not authorized to wear the SSI-FWTS. Wear is reserved for individuals who were members of U.S. Army units during the operations.

 

The regulations specify what places and times qualify you for an SSI, including attachments to Marine units and Beirut in the 1980's and with the 1st Marine Division in Iraq.

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The SSIFWTS issue has been kinda vague. No orders are needed to wear an SSI other than perstempo orders showing you were in country for over 30 days or your ERB showing the service. Your combat patch used to have to be from your highest command in theater until just last month or so when it changed to include lowest level up (non-retroactive) but peopel have been wearing whatever unit they were attached to for the longest time. To include former Marnies wearing Marine SSI's, which is still unauthorized. Any earned combat patch may be worn at discresion. I am authorized 5 myself but I only wear the 3rd ID. As for you, I would not know. Ask your S-1, they might be able to tell you.

 

FWIW both the Uniform AR(670-1) and the awards AR(600-8-22) are both out of date. No updated version of these AR's exist to my knowledge so you have to hunt up the memorandums on them to get any updated answers.

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Certain units attached to the 1st Marine Division in OIF are authorized to wear the 1MARDIV SSI as a Shoulder Sleeve Insignia-Former Wartime Service. That is in AR 670-1-

 

(14) Operation Iraqi Freedom: from 19 March 2003 to a date to be determined, for soldiers assigned to units participating in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Soldiers must have been deployed in the CENTCOM area of operations, or participated in Operation Iraqi Freedom while deployed in Turkey, Israel, and Aegis cruisers. Soldiers who served with the 1st Marine Division from 19 March 2003 to 21 April 2003 during combat operations in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom are authorized to wear the 1st Marine Division shoulder sleeve insignia as their SSI-FWTS. Soldiers who were deployed in the area of operations on training exercises or in support of operations other than Iraqi Freedom are not authorized the SSI-FWTS, unless those exercises or operations became combat or support missions to Operation Iraqi Freedom.

 

I do not know whether this has been amended to include Soldiers attached to the 2MARDIV, but it seems likely it has or will be done. Currently, former Marines, Airman and Sailors do not wear an SSI on their right shoulder to show prior qualifying service for an SSI-FWTS unless that qualifying prior service was as a member of the Army.

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Great! Thanks everyone for answering. I think this subject will be of interest to OIF/OEF collectors in the future as they try to understand why some soldiers are wearing 2nd MARDIV SSI when they don't show prior service as a Marine in their records!

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It is very common to have people in the Army to wear combat patches that are not completely authorized for them to wear.

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To answer the original question, modern day Airmen wouldn't be officially 'authorized' to wear any combat patch, since they don't wear SSI.

 

Also, further muddying the issue, Marines who've transferred to the Army, who would normally rate a combat patch, aren't allowed to wear a Marine Combat patch, since Marines don't officially HAVE SSI.

 

Isn't that stupid? So, an army guy who served WITH the 1st MarDiv can wear that SSI, but a Marine, who did the same thing, and would rate the same thing, if transferred to the army, couldn't wear the SSI.

 

Of course, if I were in that situation, I'd wear it, regs be dammed...but that's just me.

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Most people do. No one really knows, or pays attention to the regs on this stuff. I even know one soldier who wears a 2nd award CIB because he was in the first gulf war (in the Navy) along with OIF I in the Army Infantry. He thinks that gives him the right to, and no one challenges him on it. There are so many people walking around in the Army wearing unauthorized insignias and badges that it seems a waste to even read the regs.

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Bob Hudson
Most people do. No one really knows, or pays attention to the regs on this stuff. I even know one soldier who wears a 2nd award CIB because he was in the first gulf war (in the Navy) along with OIF I in the Army Infantry. He thinks that gives him the right to, and no one challenges him on it. There are so many people walking around in the Army wearing unauthorized insignias and badges that it seems a waste to even read the regs.

 

 

As I said in another thread, the only people who actually know the regs are collectors and we go crazy because some old uniforms have ribbon bars that don't match up with the regs.

 

I'll have to dig out the Army woodland camo shirt I found that has Navy air crew wings on it.... I think may actually be legitimate but again that's the kind of thing that would cause most on this forum to call it put together shirt (of course by the time woodland camo becomes collectible - say in 100 years - they may have a different attitude).

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I see this commonly in the Army. Soldiers who are prior service air force or navy the most. I see Navy air crew wings, Surface Warfare Badges, Air Force who knows what badges (they have a badge for everything I think), Even Marine Corps Jump Wings.

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The Army regs are pretty clear (after you read them over a few times) on what badges from other services are authorized on a Soldier's uniform. Many USAF, USN and USMC badges are able to be worn by those who earned them. Most Soldiers do try to abide by the regs. That's nonesense about an I'll wear what I want and the regulations be damned attitudes! Good NCOs quickly make the appropriate corrections. I think it is ignorance of the regs more than a willful desire to circumvent them. Maybe it is different these days, but I hope not.

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Being an NCO in the Army and knowing the regs that I have run ins with most the time I will say that MOST NCO's do not know what the regs are enough to enforce what is worn. Most of the other NCO's I run into rely on hearsay rather than actually knowing what is correct. This bothers me alot. If an NCO is willing to overlook certain regs then who is to say anything about more important regs. I think I was the only NCO in my unit on my second trip to Iraq who did not think we were going to get a star on our CIB's. And try to tell a senior NCO that he does not know something..... This may be different in admin MOS's but in the Infantry I see lots and lots of reg bending on certain things. Where as other issues, such as ribbon order and badge placement are very closely looked at.

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Another thing is the regs. I have tried and tried to find an updated reg on uniforms and one on awards but am unable to find one. unless it has came out in the last few months I cant locate one newer than 1998 even in the digital library. Our unit does not even have one newer than this. I think there is one out there but we can not get it. This is the reason no one knows exactly what is or is not allowed on ACU's as far as ACU velcro cover up patches and boots. So everyone does what they want with it.

 

Regs do change, quite often in the Army, but not being able to get updated regs makes it hard to follow them. I have emailed the departmentm of heraldry with certain issues over and over with no response. Take for instance, over seas stripes. Can you show me the reg which states it is for a calendar 6 months or an actual 6 months? The answer is for calendar 6 months. Can it be found in a reg? Not that I have ever seen. It was an ammendment that was added to the regs. I remember seeing this but can not find it any more. No other NCO I ask can tell me either. By calendar months I have 30 months in combat, by actual months I have 29 so do I wear 4 stripes or 5? By reg it is 5 but by my over seas time in my ERB (which most people go by) I am supposed to wear 4. Army regs are not always the most clear answers to a problem.

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AR 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia, dated 3 Feb 2005

 

AR 600-8-2006 Military Awards, dated 11 Dec 2006

 

Find them on the Army Publishing Directorate web site at www.apd.army.mil if you have access to a computer.

 

Also, go to the Army Human Resouces Command Military Awards Branch web site for updates and messages issued as changes occur.

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This is good to know now. These were not available a few months ago that I could find. My command also could not get updated versions. Last time I downloaded these AR's was in January of this year and it was still the 1998 version.

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From AR 670-1. See if this helps on the Overseas Bars, especially sections (12), (13) and (14)--

 

28–28. Overseas service bars

 

a. Large. A goldenlite rayon-embroidered bar, 3/16 inches wide 1–5/16 inches long, on a green background that forms a 3/32-inch border around the bar. All personnel are authorized to wear the large overseas service bar. Enlisted

soldiers must wear large overseas service bars with large rank and service stripe insignia.

 

b. Small. A goldenlite rayon-embroidered bar, 5/32 inch wide and 13/32 inch long, on a green background that forms a 5/64-inch border around the bar. All personnel are authorized to wear the small overseas service bar. Enlisted

soldiers must wear small overseas service bars with small rank and service stripe insignia.

 

c. How worn. The overseas service bar is worn centered on the outside bottom half of the right sleeve of the Army green uniform coat. The lower edge of the overseas service bar is placed 1⁄4 inch above the sleeve braid of the coat for

officer personnel, and 4 inches above and parallel to the bottom of the sleeve for enlisted personnel. Each additional bar is spaced 1/16 inch above, and parallel to the first bar.

 

d. By whom worn. Soldiers are authorized wear of the overseas service bar as indicated below.

 

(1) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of active Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service outside CONUS, from 7 December 1941 until 2 September 1946, both dates inclusive. In computing overseas service, Alaska is considered outside CONUS. An overseas service bar is not authorized for a fraction of a 6–month period.

 

(2) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of active Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in Korea, from 27 June 1950 until 27 July 1954, both dates inclusive. Credit toward an overseas service bar is

authorized for each month of active Federal service as a member of the U.S. Army serving in the designated hostile fire area in Korea from 1 April 1968 until 31 August 1973. The months of arrival to, and departure from the hostile fire pay area are counted as whole months. When credit is given for a month for hostile fire pay, credit for a corresponding month is given toward an overseas service bar.

 

(3) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period active Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in Vietnam, from 1 July 1958 to 28 March 1973. The months of arrival to, and departure from Vietnam are counted as whole months for credit toward the overseas service bar. Periods of TDY service in Vietnam where credit is given for hostile fire pay for 1 month, also may be given credit for a corresponding month towards award of an overseas service bar.

 

(4) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in the Dominican Republic, from 29 April 1965 to 21 September 1966, both dates inclusive.

 

(5) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in Laos, from 1 January 1966 to 28 March 1973.

 

(6) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in Cambodia from 1 January 1971 until 28 March 1973. Personnel must qualify for hostile fire pay to receive credit for an overseas service bar. The months of arrival to, and departure from the hostile fire pay area are counted as whole months.

 

(7) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in Lebanon, from 6 August 1983 to 24 April 1984, for the two units listed in paragraph 28–17b(6). The months of arrival to, and departure from the hostile fire pay area are counted as whole months.

 

(8) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in the Persian Gulf from 27 July 1987 to 1 August 1990, for Operation Earnest Will. The months of arrival to, and departure from Operation Earnest Will are counted as whole months.

 

(9) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in the Persian Gulf from 17 January 1991 to 31 August 1993, for Operation Desert Storm. The months of arrival to, and departure from Operation Desert Storm are counted as whole months.

 

(10) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service who participated in El Salvador, from 1 January 1981 to 1 February 1992. The months of arrival to, and departure from El Salvador are counted as whole months.

 

(11) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6-month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service in Somalia, from 5 December 1992 to 31 March 1995. The months of arrival to, and departure from Somalia are counted as whole months.

 

(12) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6-month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service participating in Operation Enduring Freedom, the CENTCOM area of operations, or under the control of the

Combatant Commander, CENTCOM, from 19 September 2001 to a date to be determined. The months of arrival to, and departure from the CENTCOM area of operations are counted as whole months.

 

(13) One overseas service bar is authorized for each 6–month period of Federal service as a member of a U.S. Service participating in Operation Iraqi Freedom, the CENTCOM area of operations, or under the control of the Combatant Commander, CENTCOM, from 19 March 2003 to a date to be determined. The months of arrival to, and departure from the CENTCOM area of operations are counted as whole months.

 

(14) Service as a member of a U.S. Armed Service for periods of less than 6 months duration, which otherwise meets the requirements for the award of overseas service bars, may be combined by adding the number of months to

determine creditable service toward the total number of overseas service bars authorized for the following: World War II, Korea, Vietnam, The Dominican Republic, Laos, Cambodia, Lebanon, Operation Earnest Will, Grenada, Operation

Just Cause, Operation Desert Storm, El Salvador, Somalia, Operation Enduring Freedom, and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

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That is what I was looking for. At our Infantry Ball In late January I was told I could only wear 4 bars and that I could not wear the GWOTEM and GWOTSM together and my ICM. Even tho I was awarded the GWOTSM while in the NG after Sep 11th and the GWOTEM for OIF I and the ICM for OIF III. When trying to review these regs, in this very website, it was not available. In fact a question about the ACU's was just brought up aboput a month ago but still no updated AR670-1 could be found. I will get these printed up now. Thanks for the info.

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VolunteerArmoury

Ok, I have a question about the progression of the regs for Former Wartime Service SSIs. Today I often see people with their current SSI also worn as their FWSP such as my unit the 80th which came back last year. During WW2 I understand that you had to be transferred out of that unit in order to wear that patch and I also have a couple of fatigue shirts and other uniforms from the 50's and 60's that only have the current unit patch but with CIBs. Was there a reg at one time covering that you had to be out of the unit that you served in wartime with in order to wear that patch and if so, what occured if you were to transfer back into it later, take the combat patch off? When did it change. I do recall seeing people wearing the same SSI on both sleeves from the 80's to current. Thanks

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Bob Hudson
Ok, I have a question about the progression of the regs for Former Wartime Service SSIs. Today I often see people with their current SSI also worn as their FWSP such as my unit the 80th which came back last year. During WW2 I understand that you had to be transferred out of that unit in order to wear that patch and I also have a couple of fatigue shirts and other uniforms from the 50's and 60's that only have the current unit patch but with CIBs. Was there a reg at one time covering that you had to be out of the unit that you served in wartime with in order to wear that patch and if so, what occured if you were to transfer back into it later, take the combat patch off? When did it change. I do recall seeing people wearing the same SSI on both sleeves from the 80's to current. Thanks

 

 

We've had an active thread the past couple of days about SSI-FWTS's so I merged your post into that in hopes one of the people monitoring the older thread have an asnwer.

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I don't have an answer for that one, but another tidbit of trivia...when I was stationed at US Naval Station, Annapolis, Md, in the early 1980's, as a Marine, we had a sailor with prior Army service, who wore a massive ribbon rack, topped by a CIB, on his jumper. Had a BS and PH if I recall right.

 

No one ever corrected him far as I know...and I was pretty sure that Navy regs don't authorize wear of the CIB....but I could easily be wrong...

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The wearing of a right arm SSI began in WW2. GIs with high points did not want to switch their unit patches for the new unit they might be transferred to for coming home. In 1945, the Army allowed them to move the old SSI to the right shoulder while wearing their assigned unit SSI on the left shoulder- War Department Circular 111, 7 Apr 1945. It is not a mark of combat, but indicates overseas service. If the soldier came home with the same unit he saw overseas service with, the SSI was not moved to the right shoulder. The same SSI was not to be worn on both shoulders- Change 7 to Army Regulation 600-40. 31 Oct 1945. The policy was extended to overseas WW1 service by War Department Circular 102, 22 Apr 1947. The policy was later extended for other periods of wartime service- Korea, Department of the Army message 37333, 9 Jan 1951; Vietnam, DA msg. 728961, 19 Aug 1965. The practice of wearing the same SSI on both shoulders began during the Vietnam War. It is still not an indicator of combat. It still shows service in a specifically designated area. Ceremonies "awarding" a "combat patch" are simply made up for the occasion.

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Just being in country or in a country in a supporting area is enough to rate wearing the SSI-FWTS. After going to Iraq twice as an infantryman we all were authorized a SSI-FWTS but even after two tours some of our guys still did not rate a CIB, which is for direct involvment in combat.

 

I have seen orders for the SSI-FWTS but it is not necessary as it is not an award or indication of anything other that the fact that you stayed in another country for a littlewhile at a certain time period, as stated above. This is a great discussion, I have learned alot from it.

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