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4th Infantry on the way to Paris August 1944


IVY
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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

Nice pictures.

 

Tactically:

 

Why put yourself into a creek where you are surrounded on both sides by high ground?

 

It's nice to get everyone in the photograph, but why is everyone bunched up?

 

A patrol would cover all 360 degrees with eyes and rifles and yet everyone has their rifles pointed to the left!?

 

You guys look decent but it is obvious from the picture that you are civilians in military clothing.

 

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Pick up a tactical manual and learn to move like soldiers.

 

Rock

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We Just have a look on the ww2 pictures , and exactly we are civilian ! We do it to honnor Ivymen

So if it is only to critic , can moderator delet my topic

thank you

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I don't know anything about military tactics but I love your pictures and all the hard work you guys put into honoring these heroes. Rock: this isn't a talent show its a way to show their respect towards the heroes that helped liberate their area. :thumbsup:

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Johan Willaert

You cannot post a topic here and want it deleted just because some people criticise your impression. If oohs and aahs are all you are after, then maybe you shouldn't post...

 

While you're efforts to commemorate the 4th Division in particular and the WW2 GI in general are to be commended, you should realize that your displays look a lot more like a real-life version of the WW2 GI Collectors' Guide than actual combat footage.

 

But then again, one has to wonder if war really can be recreated....

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo
We Just have a look on the ww2 pictures , and exactly we are civilian ! We do it to honnor Ivymen

So if it is only to critic , can moderator delet my topic

thank you

 

The 4th ID wouldn't be so easy to quit as you are. As a former Infantry NCO I would be disappointed if you quit at the first sing of anything negative.

 

Combat tactics are not all talent. While the individual senses and combat awareness of a soldier can differ, the tactics do not differ much. You can honor soldiers by representing them- As you have by wearing the uniforms and taking the pictures. As a veteran of the famed 82nd Airborne Division I prefer for reenactors to also learn the tactics and techniques as well as the uniforms, gear and accessories.

 

To each reenactor I challenge them to ask what is important to a soldier. Ask a Veteran what was the most important aspect of surviving combat- They will tell you the following; God, Luck, Fortune, Training, Their weapons, Tactics and mostly their comrades.

 

Last on the list will be what collectors and reenactors hold dear, such as the proper uniform, front seam versus rear seam, and all that stuff. It's all incidental to the period you reprsent.

 

Rock

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Sorry but i think the main whole way of this reenact is : good !

 

- the reenactment purpose is not aimed to be "play rambo", it won't portray the reality. During ww2 nearly all those mens were civilian drafted. So they acted like who their were & this is why the casualty rate was so high. They were simply put into the military system but you are not a soldier in months, it takes a year if you can survive it. So they act sometimes bad : not taking cover, smiling, playing cards, not making what a good straight soldiers do.

 

- On ww2 genuine period pics and testimonies we oftenly see BIG combat mistakes : not enough spaces between mens on frontline march, basic error of attack strategy, being short of ammo because you don’t remember to grab some, lost contact with your unit because you were hunting for souvenir, fraternize with civilian, being drunk or being rude to your NCO and CO ... etc ...

 

- In 1944, among all others guys many divisions were filled with IRTC (most of them were not enough trained or barely fit), newcomers froms stripped divisions, frightened, grumpy or unwilling chaps. There was many lost, the task was hard, but those "apprentice soldiers" proved themsleves to be hero : the greatest generation of all times and the respect we owe them is BIG

 

- Compared to the worldwide reenactment scale, he made his best with details and there is so few mistakes on the displays ... He choose an average normandy battle division, i support him on this choice, personnally i'm pretty fed up with paratroopers who can barely last a 4 pushups. Or the ones that are christmas trees filled with 3 times what needed in ammo, insignas then are fronting on their eyes everyone that looked at them ("poor guy i'm gonna wipe you down quickly, you don't deserve honoring the vets acting this like "...)

 

 

I don’t support him because he’s French (i feel many times closer to the US than the French) or because i know him (which is not the case) but just because he has done right there ...

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo
Someone in this thread needs to learn some tact and some manners.

 

 

I assume you mean me.

 

I've earned the right to speak my mind. I speak from experience as a volunteer citizen soldier of the US Army. As a former US Army NCO I speak to Reenactors as though they understand the minds of soldiers, although it's obvious that they don't. It's also obvious that they are less interested.

 

Tact, no. I find it cumbersome to adapt my viewpoint and communications to the miriads of levels that Reenactors and Living Historians exist. Some are very dedicated and realistic, some are in the middle and some are quite obviously poor in representation. I hold them to the same standard, as a reenactor myself, and I have seen many units attain a reasonably realistic standard. Some are better than others.

 

Adapting your constructive criticism and comments to be politically correct and sensitive is odd. As a former Army NCO that understands soldiers, I find it useful to hold everyone to the same standard. If you want to put on a uniform of a WWII soldier and take pictures for the public to see then you should have thicker skin than that. If you are going to represent MY ARMY then get it right or get off the bus.

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Rock

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo
Sorry but i think the main whole way of this reenact is : good !

 

- the reenactment purpose is not aimed to be "play rambo", it won't portray the reality. During ww2 nearly all those mens were civilian drafted. So they acted like who their were & this is why the casualty rate was so high. They were simply put into the military system but you are not a soldier in months, it takes a year if you can survive it. So they act sometimes bad : not taking cover, smiling, playing cards, not making what a good straight soldiers do.

 

- On ww2 genuine period pics and testimonies we oftenly see BIG combat mistakes : not enough spaces between mens on frontline march, basic error of attack strategy, being short of ammo because you don’t remember to grab some, lost contact with your unit because you were hunting for souvenir, fraternize with civilian, being drunk or being rude to your NCO and CO ... etc ...

 

- In 1944, among all others guys many divisions were filled with IRTC (most of them were not enough trained or barely fit), newcomers froms stripped divisions, frightened, grumpy or unwilling chaps. There was many lost, the task was hard, but those "apprentice soldiers" proved themsleves to be hero : the greatest generation of all times and the respect we owe them is BIG

 

- Compared to the worldwide reenactment scale, he made his best with details and there is so few mistakes on the displays ... He choose an average normandy battle division, i support him on this choice, personnally i'm pretty fed up with paratroopers who can barely last a 4 pushups. Or the ones that are christmas trees filled with 3 times what needed in ammo, insignas then are fronting on their eyes everyone that looked at them ("poor guy i'm gonna wipe you down quickly, you don't deserve honoring the vets acting this like "...)

I don’t support him because he’s French (i feel many times closer to the US than the French) or because i know him (which is not the case) but just because he has done right there ...

 

Consider this a discussion regarding the demeanor and behavior of soldiers. In the US Army manuals it's called Military Bearing and Courtesy.

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While it's true that WWII soldiers were drafted. In many circumstances they were not, they volunteered. The US Army is still full of citizen soldiers. There are regulars and then there are those that will spend one or two terms of enlistment. They will go back to civilian life and during their terms of service they are pulled to civilian life and the freedom of movement and choice that it entails. The United States has been at war for six years and most of our enlitees will leave the service, while a smaller percentage will become regulars.

 

I have heard many former soldiers complain about having to act like soldiers. But they're still proud of their service and know the difference. Most of them know the difference and have an expectation that anyone in uniform will act accordingly. I have stood around with WWII, Korean, Vietnam veterans and watched reenactors. They all say the same thing; reenactors, in general, fail to grasp the behavior of soldiers. They fail to grasp that even basic recruits with only six weeks of training are changed forever. All basic trainees lose the "me" and now view the world as "we". Regardless of the era, soldiers are conditioned to look after each other and they learn to work as a unit. They realize over time that the unit must work together to accomplish soldier tasks.

 

If a bunch of individuals with different agendas and opinions try to combine to accomplish a task, it will not get done quickly and efficiently. For example, take a bunch of average reenactors and tell them to clean the barracks. They will all look around to see if the "other guy" is going to do it and then they'll stand around as one guy at a time reluctantly volunteers to mop, sweep, clean, dust and pick up garbage. It will be disorganized and guys will try to let everyone else work while they stand around.

 

In the military, soldiers are conditioned to forget about their personal opinions and agendas. When given an order their minds automatically think about how "we" will accomplish the task with the minimal effort. The squad leaders will issue the orders and every single soldier will react quickly. The barracks will be cleaned quickly and efficiently and the task accomplished. There is fear of failing the team by shirking one's duties. Should a soldier walk away from his duties, the team will collectively react harshly against him. "We" means everyone. Some men are not adaptable to a military life because they are too "me" centered and are selfish. Guys will not stand buy and let one guy walk away while they do his share of the work, or fighting.

 

It is frustrating to explain this to civilian reenactors because they are not conditioned to military life and they tend to concentrate on how reenacting makes them feel as individuals. Reenacting is not about you, it's about the soldiers of the era that you represent. Your level of dedication will be reflected in what you do and how you act. If you want to dress up and stand in a creek like a bunch of individuals that are obviously civilians then more power to you. Your gear, uniforms and displays are nice but you still look like civilians in uniform. Your reaction to my comments was so totally unmilitary that it left all doubt behind.

 

I find it interesting that reenactors don't try to find that one element that changes their impression. The impression you leave on other people is what you will be. If your impression is poor then you will have done a disservice to the soldiers you claim to honor. If you act like soldiers, look like soldiers and make old soldiers nod their head in approval then your impression is good.

 

I can still knock out over 70 pushups.

 

An old Paratrooper

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Great pictures IVY !

It is important to keep the memory alive, like you guys do! Many will appreciate this.

About tactics...if you are not in the actual army , it is quite normal if you don't do it 100% " tactical ".

To veterans that would just be a small detail , overall its a good impression :thumbsup:

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(to rock)

 

- I won’t judge the ww2 soldiers, wherever they did their job, they just done it right and leave here in Europe good memories of sweet and smart guys.

 

- I’m pretty agree with you. It’s sometime hard to explain how it deal in the real army to reenactor that are here to “have fun playing the soldier”. Many times they are focused on details wich are of interset only for them.

 

Now soldier is a job because the needs have changed to a pint that need quality over quantity. But as you were a former real paratrooper i can understand you’re a bit reluctant to those fake guys doing the true paratroopers, especially when they are doing wrong.

 

But Ivy if maybe not the best, to my opinion he’s higher than many of the reenactment guys i have seen. In every field we can always improve ourselves, i think this thread has been of help for everyone ;)

 

- i was not challenging you (or the real paras) on the pushups, but rather the worse ones we can sometimes find on reenactment paratroopers. 70 is a good score by the way :thumbsup:

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I assume you mean me.

 

I've earned the right to speak my mind. I speak from experience as a volunteer citizen soldier of the US Army. As a former US Army NCO I speak to Reenactors as though they understand the minds of soldiers, although it's obvious that they don't. It's also obvious that they are less interested.

 

Tact, no. I find it cumbersome to adapt my viewpoint and communications to the miriads of levels that Reenactors and Living Historians exist. Some are very dedicated and realistic, some are in the middle and some are quite obviously poor in representation. I hold them to the same standard, as a reenactor myself, and I have seen many units attain a reasonably realistic standard. Some are better than others.

 

Adapting your constructive criticism and comments to be politically correct and sensitive is odd. As a former Army NCO that understands soldiers, I find it useful to hold everyone to the same standard. If you want to put on a uniform of a WWII soldier and take pictures for the public to see then you should have thicker skin than that. If you are going to represent MY ARMY then get it right or get off the bus.

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Rock

 

 

1. It isn't your Army anymore, It WAS your Army. You ETSed.

 

2. As a Currently serving MP NCO, and Civilian side Police Officer, I interact with people all day, and all night, I have learned that how you speak to someone steers the course of the conversation. Brow beating someone and telling them to go pick up a book, only pisses that person off and makes you look like a jerk. Now altering your tone and explaining your stance gets more of a positive reaction out of the other party.

 

3. Holding soldiers to a high standard is fine, you have to understand that you are dealing with civilians not soldiers. Many who have the best of intentions, and try their best to portray it accurately. They need mentoring, not insulting.

 

AJ

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo
1. It isn't your Army anymore, It WAS your Army. You ETSed.

 

2. As a Currently serving MP NCO, and Civilian side Police Officer, I interact with people all day, and all night, I have learned that how you speak to someone steers the course of the conversation. Brow beating someone and telling them to go pick up a book, only pisses that person off and makes you look like a jerk. Now altering your tone and explaining your stance gets more of a positive reaction out of the other party.

 

3. Holding soldiers to a high standard is fine, you have to understand that you are dealing with civilians not soldiers. Many who have the best of intentions, and try their best to portray it accurately. They need mentoring, not insulting.

 

AJ

 

1. It's still my Army. You can take the guy out of the Army but you can't take the Army out of the guy.

 

2. As a former NCO and Former Police Officer I would agree with you in part but; So long as you hold civilian reenactors to civilian standards then they will look like....civilians. I've tried the politically correct route you appear to be recommending and the civilians don't care anyway. So I just cut to the chase nowadays. Altering your tone merely compromises your standards because they will make excuses why they don't need to do this, or that. People put great effort into dressing up but almost no effort into the part that makes a soldier a soldier--> and then they justify their position by stating that they're "representing".

 

3. I have considerable experience dealing with civilian reenactors and understand fully the difference between soldiers and civilians. I have ended my politically correct, be nice to the civilian reenctors, stage. I consider myself a reenactor. I have the uniforms, gear footlockers and all that junk. I have participated in battles, displays, veterans events, air shows, parades- pretty much any reenactor event you can think of. I've dealt with reenactors, living historians, collectors and the like for years. The only people I have issues with are reenactors. They like dressing up and running around like civilians. They have a varying level of authenticity and dedication to the "acting" part of reenacting. Reenacting is not just wearing the uniforms- It's "acting" as a soldier would of that period. Then I get the excuses about how "civilian soldiers" of the era were slovenly and mostly unprofessional. Then a new layer of excuses about how tactics aren't important because it's just confusion anyway (it might be confusion because there are no tactics). Then the next layer of excuses is that no soldiers liked to march, or polish, or iron uniforms. I don't get it? What's the point of reenacting if you don't want to act like the average soldier of WWII.

 

4. Airborne Infantryman have less tact and political correctness than MP's apparently. I was in the Army during a less touchy-feely time. The time of starched khaki's, slant pocket camoflauge fatigues and C Rations. Back when we ran in boots and the NCO's didn't take sensitivity classes. Drill Sgt's were more hands on and still cursed like real men. There were no guaranteed 8 ours of sleep and Drill Sgt Critiques. There were no "time-out" cards or whatever they have now. You marched hard and fast everywhere you went. It was my way or the highway :evilgrin:

 

But then, how our society has digressed is another issue.

 

Rock

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Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

I would think that the one element that reenactors are missing would be one they seek; What soldiers think, why, and how. Their lack of inquiry is an indicator to their level of dedicationl. I've met guys that get into the heads of the "average" veteran and glean an "average" picture. They adopt the "average" and reject the sensational.

 

 

Rock

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