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Span Am Marine Cap?


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All: Here is a cap for consideration....No contract stamp visible, but the leather liner is in rough condition and some stamps are light and sink in over time into the leather...like my faint contract stamp on my 1916 Bell Crown. The EGA is usual in it self, the wear on the hat tells me the band and the EGAs have been on for a long time....the buttons are held by rings vice screw posts....all heavy with verdigris. Buckle/leather slider vice leather sliders, so if good before 1904. Also will attach several pictures of early hats for comparison. The hat's height bothers me but it did suffer crush damage. Also note the visor does not slope down like known marine caps after 1904.

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With the EGA removed...note a anchor fluke rested between both chin strap

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Behind the chin strap....found insect remains....whatever this hat turns out to be, the strap has been there for a while.

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Not the best picture....side buttons are marked "Horstmann Philada" they are 1/4' in diameter

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Not the best picture....side buttons are marked "Horstmann Philada" they are 1/4' in diameter

 

Nice cover, Dirk. I'm thinking it's about 1890 or there abouts. It has great age patina. Great find.

Bob

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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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nice find

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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All: Here is a cap for consideration....No contract stamp visible, but the leather liner is in rough condition and some stamps are light and sink in over time into the leather...like my faint contract stamp on my 1916 Bell Crown. The EGA is usual in it self, the wear on the hat tells me the band and the EGAs have been on for a long time....the buttons are held by rings vice screw posts....all heavy with verdigris. Buckle/leather slider vice leather sliders, so if good before 1904. Also will attach several pictures of early hats for comparison. The hat's height bothers me but it did suffer crush damage. Also note the visor does not slope down like known marine caps after 1904.

 

Thank you for sharing this wonderful period original with us. Let me know if you ever decide to part with the EAG ;) Best regards;


The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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Thanks guys! Darrell that EGA is an odd one....still not sure of the date.....we really need to see the uniform regs/quartermaster notes for this early stuff. Jeremiah reminded me of this image...the trumpter seems to have a similar shaped hat...have seen several other images from this period and looks like 2-3 diffrent styles being worn...some more like the traditional bell crown....some with stiff crown, others liek this more loose......

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Dirk.....Please post the side buttons and some pics of the emblem front & back.Thanks Semper Fi! Bob

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"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

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Bob: Not 100% clear but the best I could do quickly.....doomed 1/4 inch button...Horstmann marked

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Dirk: This cover is one of the best examples I have seen. It absolutely wreaks of authenticity. If you notice, not only does the chinstrap show where the fluke rested for beaucoup years as you've pointed out, the eagle's head imprint on the cover matches exactly the head on your EGA. I'm confident that the EGA and side buttons have been on this cover forever, thus, no doubts or questions about the originality of the cover. IMHO, it's a super sweet cover and a very nice find for you! Congratulations!

 

Gary

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**PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER HAS SADLY PASSED AWAY**

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15996-please-read-gary-mohrlang-glm/

 

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Gary: Thanks for the and for the long discussions on this one. If this guy is good, Chenoworth's book shows that group picture with Murphy....several of the Marines appear to be wearing this short style along side a higher framed model. I guess we can then say there is more than one model between the 1890's and 1912....from my photos the buckle disappears around 1905 to be replaced by double sliders and the hat rises in height after 1900, so by 1908 it almost looks like the 1912 bell crown we all know. Dirk

Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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Dirk,
Great find on that cover!! As I mentioned, I recently had the opportunity to review some original regs and quartermaster documents which has led me to greatly revise my original understanding on the variations of these pre M1912 caps. Apparently there was 3 different model caps issued between 1897 and 1912, not two as I originally had speculated. The actual first design stages for the initial generation of bell crown caps to replace the kepis then in service took place in 1896 and were titled 1896 & 1897 "revisions for caps for officers and EM." The first model, designated the M1897 (not M1895 as I originally had thought) is what you have pictured. They have a very pronounced, rather flat, visor. The second model, designated the M1904, has a very steeply sloped visor. It was variations in the manufacture and styling/bending and shaping of visors that led to the 1904 pattern of cap adopted in the 1904 regs. There are huge varations described in detail in the regs down to the post holes and vent holes and lining and basic structure of the cap. The 1897 had a leather band as the stiffener while the 1904 began used the new wicker cap frame, utilized also in the M1912 and up through WWII. I have seen these M1904s equipped with chinstraps with buckles, and with sliders, as is the one pictured, so it stands to reason that both types of chinstraps were used in the production of the same model hat by different contract manufacturers. Here is a photo of a 1900 dated M1897, like yours, in the foreground, and a 1906 dated M1904 in the background for comparison.


***COLLECTOR NOTE***
All collectors should note that the individual who initially started this post has been banned and his posts are now being reviewed for authenticity.

Our main interest at USMF is making sure collectors are aware and can learn about period pieces. And, having non-original pieces as guides does a disservice to all. The administration encourages members having detailed information regarding the item being a fake, reproduction, and/or put together to come forward and post it here or in other threads.

For more information regarding the user “DevilDan1900” and the cause for this review, please see below link:
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=15227

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Dirk,

Just for reference, here is a shot that RayG posted on the WA forum a while back. The Marine detachment pictured are still using the Win - Lees which puts it squarly during the period of the Spanish American War. You can see the flatter brimmed M1897 (just like yours) caps they are wearing quite clearly. Also notice on some you can see buckles and on others just slides.

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Thanks to all for this information and pictures, this truly helps in understanding the period uniform wear. Dirk when you have the opportunity; the front AND reverse of this emblem needs to be posted in the EGA reference section.


The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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A final shot of the full side. Dan most likely the reason you only see buckles on one side in the USS Brooklyn SC is personal preference. I've got a ships photo in which 17 out of 20 have adjusted their straps with the buckle on the right side while the remaining three have theirs on the left. I always suspected there was some type of a change to the cap around 1904....the photos I've been able to gather pointed to that. Now the true test will be when we can ID a makers cap based on the style we see in photo....I think around 1900 another maker was out there producing a cap with elements closer to the bell crown than mine....now about dating that EGA :rolleyes:

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Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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