USMC Shako Plate - Vintage?

[bobgee]

I picked this USMC Shako plate up at a Dallas gun show table several years ago for $5.00. Knew it was an old vintage piece but have always been curious as to what vintage? Civil War or ? Officer or enlisted? The front of the plate very clearly shows the outline of the Civil War era infantry bugle with "M" center. It is not as clear on the attached pic. The reverse is un-mucked with and has only two soldered brass loops to attach it to a shako.

 

 

This is a drawing copied from Driscoll's "The Eagle, Globe And Anchor 1868 - 1968"

 

 

Any comments regarding the vintage of this piece are welcome.

Semper Fi......Bobgee

[teufelhunde.ret]

Hi Bob - I think you correct in this presumption. The outside square holes would certainly facilitate the horn and the center square hole would receive the "M" It is a fine example and I would tend to think period original or certainly close given the richness and depth of the patina. That sort of thing is really hard to fake. Its interesting to note the subtle and yet visible differences in the pattern of the plate in side by side comparison of a latter era re-strike. Thank you for sharing with us! s/f Darrell

 

[usmcaviator]

Bob,

This era of collecting starts to get fuzzy for most collectors. I know of no fewer than 5-6 versions of the shako plate and like I have shown, many different methods of the P1876 attaching itself to these plates. There are also drum plates, which look the same, but are of different size. The USMC band leader has also used this plate for almost a century. I think the actual date of the plates existence is also in question. Briuer's long awaited book, I think tackles some of these issues.

 

What is the measurement of your plate? I would say that yours is a period example, perhaps one of the first plates with the addition of the french hunting horn and gothic "M" associated with the Civil War. I know of very few post 1868-1876 pieces, but from what I have seen, the use of the horn continued for a short time before the EGA as we know it caught on.

 

Darrell, if the one above (at right) is a restrike, I am wondering how you reached this conclusion?

 

Semper,

Mike

[bobgee]

Mike - the dimensions of the shield are 3 1/4"H x 2 3/4"W. I assume the Infantry Bugle w/ "M" insignia would have continued until 1869 when the Corps insignia of Eagle, Globe and Anchor in brass was approved for enlisted men.

Bob

[teufelhunde.ret]

Darrell, if the one above (at right) is a restrike, I am wondering how you reached this conclusion?

Semper,

Mike

 

Mike, there are a few clues which lead to to think this is of 30's vintage or thereabouts. The shield really has not developed any real pagination as shown on Bob's example. It has likely been produced with nickel free composition brass and replaced with zinc / tin antimony which became popular in this era as anti-tarnish measure. Thus the yellow iridescent color does give-way to the orangey / brown character seen in pieces made in the 1800's. Another-words no natural aging. The strike itself is very soft and key areas that should demonstrate detailed highlights lead me to believe the plate was stamped and not die-struck - perhaps to - it is from a set of dies with have long passed their usefulness. And the last clue is the presence of the silver antimony solder on this example. On Bob's plate the old tin/lead solder which exhibits the real age of the piece.

[usmcaviator]

Darrell,

Hmmmmm... Thanks for your reply. I did not see the back, but I have no problems with the front of that shield. I count this in my collection as a known original, having a vintage shako displaying a like piece (however it having a loop backed EGA and loop backed shield). Are you under the impression that these were made by Stokes / Bannerman? Is there a chance they may have used original shields and punched them for their P1892 EGAs that the jury is still out on? To sell as surplus? I see many, what I think are, original 1876 shields that have been modified to accept the wrong prong backed EGA. What's your take?

 

Mike

[teufelhunde.ret]

What's your take?

Mike

 

Honestly Mike I wish I had a buck for each one of these I've stared at and tried to determine, period original - latter era re-strike? Would be one h*ll of a wetting down party! My feeling is in each case the viewer needs to take a gut check based on what they know and don't know.

 

I'm troubled with most all I see... for the lack of verdigris, esp when one considers the environment conditions of the era. Specifically no HVAC or other climate controls we've grown accustomed to during our lives. Those period pieces of the 1800's should us some bronzing effects. Further, or better said a "statuary finish", like an old copper penny, is sometimes also referred to as antique copper. It can range in color from a light brown surface, or random spotting with highlights of copper color showing through. This brown color naturally develops over time as a result of surface oxidation, but it can also be created artificially with the use of chemicals ie polysulfides and electrolytic oxidation for overall toning. But back to verdigris - this sought-after natural blue-green patina color can take many years to develop naturally and in some environments it may never develop (ie the climate controlled state we've lived in for the better part of a half century). IN any case this color is created as a film of copper sulfate develops on the surface, typically develops in chemically "dirtier" environments, such as coastal or urban areas.

 

So in the end - my gut feeling is - very few I see give me enough evidence, clues and confidence to lead me to believe they were made / worm some 100 plus years ago. Period originals - surplus - restrikes, who really knows for sure and positively ID each... gut feeling and intuition. BTW, here's another sold on Manions recently, many different characteristics shown from the examples above. s/f Darrell