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British Made US Glider Pilot wings - reproduction?


Tseuh
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Hello,

 

I've recently bought these glider wings. Full size, english made pin, only marking : "silver"

What do you think about them ?

 

Thanks,

 

Tim.

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Thanks Paul. :thumbsup:

 

I like them too when I have them in hands. But I'm a real newbie about wings, so specialist opinions are important to me.

Let's wait for other opinions...

All the best,

Tim.

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Brian Dentino

I like these as well.....I think that you are spot on with the WWII British made wings. I like em and think you have a nice pair there! :thumbsup:

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Hi guys,

 

I think you need to be very VERY careful with wings like these. We have discussed this before and Gary Caine has a great deal of knowledge of this that I think is spot on. I would do a search for some of those old threads when he talks about hallmarks of English and Commonwealth wings. At the time, I was a bit of a sceptic, but am now more in agreement with him.

 

First, the use of "SILVER" is nonsensical in English made insignia. the regulations for marking items made in precious metal was/is pretty strict in England, and "SILVER" would not have been acceptable. They should be marked STERLING and likely even have appropriate proof marks. Frankly, this wing (and many others that I have seen marked "SILVER" like this) look to be more like a pot metal rather than a silver or silver alloy. This suggests that the marks are fake (at the very least)

 

Second, I have noticed that this pattern of wing frequently shows up (here is an example of mine in the pilot) with the JR Gaunt hallmark and the plain old "SILVER" mark (in both USAAF and jump wings). Careful study of my wing with other JR Gaunt wings with better provenance indicated that mine was just a tad shorter than the "good" ones--a sign of them being cast. Also, my wing has some softness to the detail that makes me think it is a very good casting of a JG Gaunt wing. Again, when compared side by side, the differences begin to stand out very well. When I get home tonight, I will try to scan a good and bad wing side by side so you can see what I mean.

 

That being said, if these wings are indeed fake (and I have to say that now my feeling is that they are--at least in regards to my wing), they are very good fakes, that can only easily be told apart by careful examination with a "good" wing.

 

My suggestion would be for carefully measuring the length and weight of the wing and seeing how it compares to other people's JR Gaunt wings.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Patrick

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John Cooper

Patrick,

 

Looking forward to your next post and would like to know the exact size of the wing picutred. In general a rule of thumb for me on British wings is that you typically find them made of brass with a silver plate. I have also been told by a fellow collector that the British did not use sterling in their wings since their monitory system was base on sterling... I have not research this further maybe someone here can comment.

 

As for the two wings posted they both appear to be the J.G. Gaunt pattern although with differences in the fittings and the forcer marks. The reverse on patricks looks to be closer to the J.R. Gaunt pilot I have which is silver plated brass and only marked with the makers name.

 

I guess another interesting point is the silver mark which is similar to CBI made wings vs. a sterling mark found on Aussie wings that have been under discussion.

 

Without having these in hand it is hard to really tell either way so I have to ask Tim and patirck the following:

 

1) how crisp are the details

2) any signs of this being cast

3) how much do they weigh

4) how do they feel in the hand when compared to other un-questioned wings

 

Regrads,

 

John

 

P.S. If I was going to make a FAKE J.R. GAUNT wing and go to the trouble to use the same style of fittings when would I mark it silver so as to draw attention for the reason Partick stated and as posted by Gary?

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Howdy,

 

So I went ahead and pulled out my two wings to do a side by side comparison. First, both of these wings were actually gifts from a friend in England, so I don't have any real financial attraction to either wing (I have emotional attachment because they were from a friend). Thus, we can be as cruel or not as we want to about their "vintage". It wont change the fact that they were gifts and I like them for that fact alone.

 

The pilot wing is marked with an excised JR Gaunt London hallmark in the wing tip and has a very nice patina. Despite the SILVER stamped in the wing, I do not think it is any where near STERLING. The detail is pretty good and at first glance nothing much sends up warning flags.

 

The glider wing is a beauty, with a silver frosting on the front that is near mint. It is not marked in any way on the back.

 

After one of the conversations with Gary on this forum (he was very skeptical of any commonwealth wing marked SILVER and I initially disagreed with him), I decided to go ahead and compare it with other wings that I thought were also vintage JR Gaunt wings.

 

I reasoned that their would be one of three outcomes:

 

1) The wing was good and maybe the "silver" mark was bad

2) The wing was bad and the "silver" mark was bad.

3) The wing compared exactly with other known examples and both wing and mark were good.

 

I used a collection of a couple of buddies who are very advanced collectors. I looked at all sorts of ratings (ie pilot, glider, air crew, etc)

I looked at patterns, markings, and pins.

I then compared side by side sizes (because cast wings are usually slightly smaller than die struck wings) of both wings.

 

What I found was that this pattern was clearly a JR Gaunt pattern. The pins and hinges were about the same. Some wings were hallmarked, some were not. The pusher pattern on the back had some variation that suggested that either different pushers were used or that the process of making the wings was variable.

 

The glider wing matched up well in size with the "good" examples, but the pilot wing was slightly smaller.

 

Very careful examination of the wings did not indicate any blatant signs of casting, but the pilot wing seemed to have a slight softness of detail. The pilot wing is clearly not sterling silver, but could be a silver alloy.

 

Based on my comparisons, I feel that the unmarked glider wing is a good JR. Gaunt wing. Because the pilot wing is slightly smaller than the other wings, 2 potential conclusions can be made about its vintage:

 

1) the pilot wing is from a good but totally different set of dies than the other JR Gaunt examples OR

2) the pilot wing is either a very VERY good cast wing or from a die made from a cast wing of a good JR Gaunt wing because is is markedly smaller than other JR Gaunt wings.

 

Because the silver mark is wrong for vintage wings, and appears on my wing and some others that I have seen that I also have doubts about, I kind of believe that this is a mistake made by a faker trying to even further enhance its appeal (clearly this is a wing designed to fool collectors) and that a wing in this pattern with a SILVER mark may be a bad one. So, I have to say that I think I was originally wrong in disagreeing with Gary and that he is likely correct (IMHO)--wings marked with SILVER should be avoided or at least examined with a very skeptical eye.

 

To tell if this is actually the case, one thing to do would be to compare sizes of wings like I have done and get a better idea of how common this is in these wings. I suspect that most if not all of the SILVER marked wing will be smaller than a good JR Gaunt. As you can see, the differences are very subtle. However, I only examined MY wing, so I could be wrong.

 

Finally, these are just MY conclusions with wings in my collection. I am not trying to imply that what someone else posted is bad, but my point is just to raise concerns that should be relatively easy to check.

 

Patrick

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The back of the two wings.

 

Again, other than some very subtle things, nothing about either wings screams "fake" to me. Even careful study under the loop. If anything, the pin and hinge on the glider wing seem just a tad bit more "fine" and delicate than the pilot wing. However, unless you had 3 or 4 or more other JR Gaunt wings to lay out and do side by side comparisons, it would be hard to notice.

 

I want to stress, that when I did my comparisons with my friend's collection, ALL his wings were about the same size and only my pilot wing was smaller. So, even though I show a glider wing next to a pilot wing, if I had my friends collection, I could have used his pilot wings or aircrew wings to make the same comparison.

 

It is becoming pretty clear that the family of commonwealth wings from England to Australia are becoming a real minefield to collectors. JR Gaunts, Angus and Cootes, and KG Lukes are now well known to be faked and reproduced by very crafty mechanisms...... :thumbdown:

 

Patrick

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some more detail.

 

The JR Gaunt hallmark is rather smooshed and soft. That is a bit of a warning flag. Also, notice some very subtle signs of grinding around the edges of the bottom wing. Also, I see some potential signs of casting in the crease of the wing.

post-1519-1248275396.jpg

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Close up of the shields. The pilot wing's shield shows the most obvious signs of casting with some flaws indicated by the arrows. This was pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. Sometimes, the shield gets dings and stuff, but these are clearly flaws in the casting process of this wing. Also notice the general lack of fine detail in the feathers (I have one more scan to show this).

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Good points all, now I am going to have to put my display apart and check mine.... Funny, I was told that the good Brit wings almost always have brass pins, that the copies all use steel pins. That was one of the details I liked about the Glider wings

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Finally, while it is hard to see due to the reflection of the bright silver frosting on the glider wing and the relatively dull surface of the pilot wing, the little feathers on the wings seem to be sharper and more clearly defined on the glider wing than the pilot wing. Very subtle I agree, and could be explained away by general wear and tear. Still, the pilot wing just has a sense of less refinement.

 

Not shown, but examination of the edges of the wings show the expected lines of a die struck wing. So that was not a very good detail to try to tell these two wings apart.

 

Also, in hand, the pilot wing has a very nice patina. But when compared with other wings, something is just "off" with it that you really don't get a sense of until you do side by side comparisons.

 

All in all, this is a wing (the silver marked pilot wing, that is) that I think people should be very careful with. Not that it couldn't be good, but I would really hesitate to toss big money at wing like this without very careful and critical vetting, if you know what I mean.

 

Hope that this helps.

 

Patrick

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Good points all, now I am going to have to put my display apart and check mine.... Funny, I was told that the good Brit wings almost always have brass pins, that the copies all use steel pins. That was one of the details I liked about the Glider wings

 

Hello Paul,

 

I have heard the same things about the pins, but that is a pretty easy thing to fix or change if you were making fakes. I think that the glider wing pin is actually sterling silver myself. In some areas it has a nice patina, but in other areas it is rather bright. This pattern looks more like natural aging, for example, under the catch it is bright, but on either side of the catch where exposed to air the metal is tarnished. On the other hand, the pin on the pilot wing only shows tarnish around the hinge, but the rest of the pin (even areas under the catch) show no tarnish at all. It is almost like they used the pin to dip the wing into a chemical wash.

 

Patrick

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Guys,

 

I decided to go to ( in my opinion) one of the all time experts on wings, Russ Huff. Here is his response:

 

"What a loaded question. What started out as a simple answer became complex, and involved the challenge of reading a long, long dialog on the website. Now here's what I know, aside from all that is happening in the current market.

 

 

When I first came across these British patterns some 35 years ago, they came through from three makers: Firmin, Gaunt and Ludlow. None of these wings, I repeat absolutely none of these wings were ever made in silver. All were base metal underneath, all were clearly die-struck and I believe the metal was brass plated with silver, since silver itself was a scarce item in Europe during the war. Thus the general rule was to never expect to find "sterling' or "silver" on any of these patterns. We grew to appreciate them for the intricate veining in the feathers and the attention to detail by their designers. Secondly, the Firmin pattern was the smaller, tighter pattern, while its plating held up better and hence it was the most expensive of the three. The Pilot and Glider types you gentlemen are discussing were originally Firmin designs. The second pattern, the Gaunt, was a flatter wing, or broad and wide...however you want to describe it. Both these patterns had raised logos. The Ludlow came through as the third maker, an inferior wing, closer in design to the Gaunt but marked Ludlow. Perhaps they were sub contracted to do the pattern. Often these were found devoid of plating which had lifted off over time, and looked more cheaply made. Again, none, ever, were found with silver marks of any kind.

 

 

I did notice one comment that said, "the pins could easily be changed" or something to that effect. Not really. Once a fitting was properly soldered, it was a very messy process to take it off. And of course the patina is destroyed in the heating process. Today's fittings, wrapped pins and all the rest, are snapped on with a newer, I believe electric charged process. Again, beware of a played with wing and always answer the question "why?" before you invest good money in it.

 

 

I don't envy you guys today. All the Commonwealth wings seem to be in play again, copied and expertly aged with a false patina. From appearances only, the Glider badge looks beautiful. Too beautiful. The silver plate has not lifted after "all these years" and that's a sign of trouble here in River City. Recently John Cooper sent me some scans on the Luke wings and my memory is weak on these. The circular, raised logo in the center seems perfect to me, the other straight logo is totally unfamiliar. I've been shown fake Angus and Coote with a greenish tone, otherwise rather convincing. Scary times."

 

 

SO I stand corrected on the Glider Wing that started all this, and after checking my collection, I see that I don't have any marked "silver" all mine are unmarked OPPS

 

Paul

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Thank Paul (and Russ),

 

Just a couple of things to clarify.

 

1) When I said it should be easy to "fix the pins" what I meant was for the faker to put in the proper pins when making the fakes. I assume that one could also leave the hinge (which is simply a small tube in any case) and add a new pin by removing the old and inserting and then bending the new pin around the previously attached hinge. I actually saw a jeweler do that once with a wing that he was repairing. Just using a bit of silver wire and a couple of needle nose pliers he was able to bend the pin into the proper orientation without removing the hinge tube. So theoretically, a steel wire pin could be replaced with a brass wire pin without removing the whole hinge system.

 

2) My glider pilot wing doesn't seem to be silver plated over brass, but is just treated with some sort of bright silver finish (almost like a paint). You can actually see where it comes around in the back of the wing. I am actually happy with the glider wing (the shine is actually more of an artifact of the scanning process than it really is in person).

 

3) All I can say for sure is that I have deep misgivings about my pilot wing. IMHO, I think my wing is actually a cast piece, and thus that alone makes me think it is a fake. The question is whether or not the glider wing that started the thread is actually a cast piece is harder to tell for certain. It may not logically be true that because the hallmark is questionable that the wing is also questionable. As was mentioned elsewhere, when silver prices were skyrocketing, it was not unheard of for fake hallmarks to be added to something to try to fool people. I have a couple of wings that I am pretty sure have had fake "STERLING" marks added to 100% vintage wings that were intended to make the wings seem more valuable. So this could be a good WWII vintage glider pilot wing with a fake SILVER mark.

 

Patrick

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John Cooper

Interesting set of posts and comments all!

 

Just a quick couple of points as it is late I am tired.

 

On the bright silver of the Glider wing is it possible it was replated?

 

As far as the SILVER mark being added later... this has come up in conversation with a few folks and all agreed it would take some force to make the mark. This force would likely damage the obverse of the wing.

 

I altered the photos of the first wing posted to so the SILVER marks position relative to what appears to be damage on the obverse. Notice how it appears there was more force on the last few letters than the first. Now look at that in relation to the position of the damage on the obverse.

 

Just somehting to consider.

 

silvermark.jpg

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88thcollector

Hi,

 

 

I have no no opinion on the wings though the few I have owned have been plated.

 

English sterling silver is never marked "sterling, silver, sterling silver" or anything like that. The English use a complex system of hallmarks. There will be the bust of the monarch (shows duties oaid), a city mark (lion for London, anchor for Birmingham, etc), a purity mark (varies by city), a date mark (a letter) and maker's mark (optional). Even small objects and removable parts (lids, bobeches) will typically be hallmarked. Very small objects will usually have at least the duty and purity marks. The penalties for not following the regulations are severe.

 

http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

 

Steve

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Hello,

 

First of all, thank you to all of you for these informations !

It's a bit hard for me to participate, first because I'm not expert at all (so I'm here to learn), two because my english is a bit poor an it's sometimes hard to understand all the thin differences you notice. But, what an interesting discussion here. Thanks again.

 

Here are other pics of these glider wings, compared to 100% original JR Gaunt pilot wings (found in a pocket of a 8th pilot's jacket).

The wings are exactly the same size and weight. But the design is a bit different when you look closely.

I hope it may help.

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3749788358_2e5677e3b0_b.jpg

 

Tim.

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May I see the makers mark on the pilots wing? To be honest with you I have not seen a similar mark on any legit Gaunt wing I have ever seen.

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Another comment from Russ:

 

Yes, I do remember the very rare occasion when an English made US wing was made in precious metal. I found once a "925" silver content on one Firmin, and another time the word silver. Quite frankly, since they were such an anomaly, I didn't consider them to be the rule but rather a rare and even questionable exception. There was a time years back when everyone wanted sterling, pin back wings and someone could have found a way to play into that market. Or it could have been a jeweler's piece, beautifully made up for private sale. But all that I said yesterday still holds. The wings were plated and over time some of that lifted off, leaving the shoulders and oft times the wings themselves a bit worn and plain looking. Still, the beauty of the feathering and the sense of being issued in the European theatre gave an aura of history and importance to the wings. You could believe that these wings "flew".

 

( took me a few days to get back to this, sorry)

 

I concur with Gary, I have never seen a stamped Gaunt hallmark, every one I have owned ( and I have had several) has been raised. Also, now that I see the Glider wing in better light, it looks cast particularly in the side view.

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Paul

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Brian Dentino

Huh.....thanks guys. I learn something new all the time thanks to the dedication and study of others. I weighed in on the wings early on in the discussion and should not have but based my opinion on 2 not so detailed photos and the clasp/pin on the back as well as the Silver mark. Obviously I have learned that I was in error and thank all who have posted to teach me through their knowledge. :thumbsup:

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