FightenIrish35 Posted July 12, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 12, 2009 Greetings, I was thinking of this today and thought id ask. I have seen a couple Posthomous PH'S in the box but no Lapel pin, yet it has the slot for one. When they were sent to the familys after the soldier is deceased, were they not included as the lapel would not have been used on a uniform as the recipient is already deaceased? Or were they issued with the medal and they just get lost over the years? :think: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37thguy Posted July 12, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 12, 2009 Hmmm? Good question :think: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted July 12, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 12, 2009 They were issued with ribbon bar and lapel pin, but the lapel pin is very easy to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FightenIrish35 Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted July 12, 2009 thanks jbfloyd , by chance do you know of any publications or anything that this is stated in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted July 12, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 12, 2009 Jeff is correct. They came as complete sets and were inspected prior to being sent out. I have some that are complete and others that have the ribbon and/or the lapel pin missing. Some mothers and fathers wore those lapel pins. I have one set where the only piece showing wear is the lapel pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FightenIrish35 Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted July 12, 2009 This is very great information guys! Im glad I asked because I would have leaned towards thinking that they didnt add the lapel and ribbon in...thanks a bunch! This is going to sound stupid again,but,were all medals during ww2 issued with all parts in boxes to Posthomous soldiers.Such as silver star...bronze star...etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwightPruitt Posted July 13, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 13, 2009 Michael, as Jeff said, Purple Hearts were issued with medals, lapel pins, ribbon bars and a short length of loose ribbon. Over time most of the "extras" get lost. It was my experience that the length of ribbon was the most common thing to be lost, followed by the ribbon bar and then the lapel pin. If you can locate a copy of Gen. Fred Borch's book on the Purple Heart, it would be worth the money. It's a good reference work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted July 13, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 13, 2009 I have seen hundreds of WWII KIA Purple Hearts. I am not convinced all came with a lapel pin and ribbon bar. Earlier in the war there seems to be a trend of just including the Purple Heart in the box with no Lapel Pin or Ribbon Bar. My guess is the PQMD knew those devices would not be needed for posthumous awards and they didnt include them. I havent found a directive for this, just observing may in the original shipping cartons without them. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 13, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 13, 2009 I have seen hundreds of WWII KIA Purple Hearts. I am not convinced all came with a lapel pin and ribbon bar. Earlier in the war there seems to be a trend of just including the Purple Heart in the box with no Lapel Pin or Ribbon Bar. My guess is the PQMD knew those devices would not be needed for posthumous awards and they didnt include them. I havent found a directive for this, just observing may in the original shipping cartons without them. Kurt I agree with Kurt. I have seen many in the original shipping boxes with just the engraved medal. Posthumous Purple Hearts were often shipped without the lapel pin, extra ribbon piece and ribbon bar. A letter also accompanied the medal which advised the next-of-kin that they could display the medal but that it could not be worn. Maybe Kurt has a copy to post. The devices intended for a living recipient were therfore extraneous and were ommitted (but not all the time!). My 2-cents. Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted July 13, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 13, 2009 I find it difficult to accept that someone in PQMD, or any other issuing headquarters, would direct someone to pull out parts of a decoration set based on the status of the recipient. To do so would be a waste of manpower and result in a pile of unassociated ribbon bars, lapel pins and ribbon cuts. All it would take is some irate mother complaining to her Congressman about the missing lapel pin and that process, if it ever existed, would have stopped in a heart beat. Far more likely that the pieces were removed or fell out of the box. I've seen far more Purple Heart lapel pins in women's jewelry boxes at estate sales than I have PHs in shipping boxes without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted July 13, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 13, 2009 The boxes, medals , and lapel pins all came from different contractors. That means someone had to put them in the leatherette box. The PH's came from the contractors in a cardboard box and had to be put in the leatherette case. The lapel pins were made early on by "AE company" . They did not come in the leatherette box and had to be put in them. Maybe the PQMD didnt put them into the boxs to begin with for KIA's ? Normally the lapel pins leave a mark if they were in the box to begin with. I have seen many KIA PH's in boxes that look like the lapel pins were never in the box. The later war KIA PH's always seem to have a lapel pin and ribbon bar ETC. Its the 1943-early 44 issue medals I have noticed the trend of the accessories missing. Frank Smith will tell you the same thing too. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted July 13, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 13, 2009 I'm guessing that the assembly of the decoration sets took place long before the medals were shipped to the families. Everything goes in the case, the case is checked and goes into the outer box and into larger boxes for movement. Every offshoot of that production line slows the process and produces opportunities for problems. I just don't see the benefit of having two streams of Purple Hearts to process and ship when you're cranking out large numbers. The likelihood of error is substantial and the likelihood of an error causing an outcry is greater yet. Joe Doaks doesn't care if his Bronze Star comes with or without a lapel pin or ribbon bar, but Joe's mother will be on the local Congressman's tail in a flash if she feels she's been shorted. If she gets a box with a slot for a lapel pin, but no pin, she's going right to the guy who sent her the notification telegram, the Adjutant General. Answering a couple of heated letters from the AG would cause production changes to preclude further episodes. The government may be wasteful and generally inefficient, but this strikes me as beyond what even the laziest production supervisor would do. I understand Kurt's scenario, but I find it far more likely that the ribbon bar and lapel pin were removed or lost by the family, even when they kept the outer boxes, forwarding card and tissue paper. The ribbon bar and lapel pin went in the jewelry box, the medal went in the drawer. But, stranger things have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted July 13, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 13, 2009 The examples I have specifically documented are the ones in the slightly yellow outer cardboard shipping boxes with the lid that only comes down 1/2 way to the bottom of the box. These are commonly seen for 1943 awards. Perhaps this issue is mostly related to the supply of medals that came in these outer boxes? Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom2001 Posted July 14, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 14, 2009 Here's an interesting undated newspaper clipping from the early 1940's, I'm guessing. Looks like Mrs Haney missed the two sets in the top row, that are missing RB, LP, and ribbon swatches!! Yea, I know, it adds nothing to the discussion. Just thought it was neat!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FightenIrish35 Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share #15 Posted July 14, 2009 Jeeze thats an interesting photo Tom.Thanks for posting that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted July 14, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 14, 2009 Note that the shipping crates are marked "Purple Heart, Complete" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted July 14, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 14, 2009 Thanks for posting the photo Tom! It's also interesting to note that the crates are not from a manufacturer, but instead from the PQMD after they had put the sets together. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhcoleterracina Posted July 14, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 14, 2009 Michael, the book CALL OF DUTY is a must along with the other suggestions made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom2001 Posted July 14, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 14, 2009 Here are two versions of the J.A. Ulio transmittal letter. The first, dated 1944, clearly indicates that posthumous PH's would not be shipped with ribbon bar or lapel pin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom2001 Posted July 14, 2009 Share #20 Posted July 14, 2009 By 1945, Ulio makes no reference to the missing parts, stating only that the decoration is not authorized to be worn by the next of kin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 14, 2009 Share #21 Posted July 14, 2009 Tom - Thanks for posting these AGO letters. They validate the point to which I was referring. Best......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted July 14, 2009 Share #22 Posted July 14, 2009 Ditto Tom! I hadn't had a chance to find my copies and post them. They very clearly illustrate what Bob and I believed concerning earlier awards. Kurt Tom - Thanks for posting these AGO letters. They validate the point to which I was referring. Best......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwightPruitt Posted July 14, 2009 Share #23 Posted July 14, 2009 Here are two versions of the J.A. Ulio transmittal letter. The first, dated 1944, clearly indicates that posthumous PH's would not be shipped with ribbon bar or lapel pin Interesting, Tom! I certainly stand both educated and corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FightenIrish35 Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share #24 Posted July 14, 2009 Id like to thank you all for chimeing in and really getting this topic going. Tom thanks for finding those documents and posting those images. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted July 14, 2009 Share #25 Posted July 14, 2009 Interesting indeed! Now I wonder how long the hiatus was and what caused its beginning and end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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