151mg Posted July 10, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 10, 2009 These belong to a friend. I have asked an expert and he wasnt sure what the torch was for, ... if it belongs to the preson we hope it does the he did train late war and post war. Anybody know for sure what wings with a troch behind the shield is? Thanks 151mg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted July 10, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 10, 2009 These belong to a friend. I have asked an expert and he wasnt sure what the torch was for, ... if it belongs to the preson we hope it does the he did train late war and post war. Anybody know for sure what wings with a troch behind the shield is? Thanks 151mg A similar type of wing with the torch was made using a different wing pattern. These unauthorized wings were called the combat observer--(oops, I mean "fighting observer") and were likely only worn by a small number of people. In Duncan Campbell and Terry Morris' books on WWI wings they show a couple of examples of these rare wings. In your case, the wing looks like a very nice WWI wing made by the Linz Brothers company (here is an example http://www.ww2wings.com/wings//wwi/presley...irservice.shtml ) The torch doesn't really look vintage to the wing, but that is hard to know for sure. If possible, I would love to see more photos of the front and back of the wings. You may have a very rare wing there. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschwartz Posted July 10, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 10, 2009 Well I appreciate the reference to me as "an expert" but I'm far from it. Just a guy who continues to learn more about wings every day. I agree with you Patrick, as I mentioned when I first got this via email recently I also noted that the torch didn't appear to be an original part of the wing. Gorgeous WW1 era wing but the torch, just can't say for sure. I'm anxious to read what others think. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted July 10, 2009 Share #4 Posted July 10, 2009 The torch was was used as the symbol for the ROTC. I wonder if this is some sort of Reserve Military Aviator variation? Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted July 10, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 10, 2009 Can we have you post a full front and back shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted July 10, 2009 Here is part of the back...had to crop to reduce file size to get under the limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted July 10, 2009 Here is part of the back...had to crop to reduce file size to get under the limit. OK and here is the other half: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted July 10, 2009 Cool, I am impressed ..... now here is the unbelieveable part. The friend that has them got them with a photo and a bunch of small uniform brass winds (5 or 6). The Photo is of Kenneth Marr and he is in a hat in ring marked SE5. I believe the photo to be post war in that the roundel is the war time circular type but it has the star amd meat ball painted over it! Nope don't have a photo of Marr with it on but it appears to be a group. And yea, I know the hat and ring had Newports and Spads, he is in an SE5! Now the truely unbelieveable part is that my friend is not dieing, he is not on his death bead, he has no been diagnosed to any terminal aliments that I know of and he may want to sell it! No I dont believe I have the money for it but what do you guys think this wing would be worth..... attributed to Marr and just on their own? Thanks again, 151mg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted July 10, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 10, 2009 I looked this one up in one of the reference books, there are five or so known to exist, none with the US ...... So if it's good, it's very rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker502 Posted July 10, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 10, 2009 I think this could be a period fighting observer that was modified with the an existing Linz wing. The story makes sense with the SE-5 with the 94th Aero insignia. The 1st Pursuit group was stationed at Kelly Field after they came back from the Army of Occupation. The fighting observer wing could make an appearance during this time 1919 . IMHO, that is a valuable wing without the torch, so why would a fake ruin something thats good to try pass it as a Fighting observer. The fighting observer although rare are not impossible to find, I have seen 2 real ones for sale in the past 8 years. I think the other items of the group would add more clues to the story. Also that fact that Linz Brothers were Dallas Tx. where Kelly Field is at makes more sense.. I think it is legit, but will let some of the metal WW1 wing experts make the fnial blessing on it...Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 10, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 10, 2009 I think this could be a period fighting observer that was modified with the an existing Linz wing. The story makes sense with the SE-5 with the 94th Aero insignia. The 1st Pursuit group was stationed at Kelly Field after they came back from the Army of Occupation. The fighting observer wing could make an appearance during this time 1919 . IMHO, that is a valuable wing without the torch, so why would a fake ruin something thats good to try pass it as a Fighting observer. The fighting observer although rare are not impossible to find, I have seen 2 real ones for sale in the past 8 years. I think the other items of the group would add more clues to the story. Also that fact that Linz Brothers were Dallas Tx. where Kelly Field is at makes more sense.. I think it is legit, but will let some of the metal WW1 wing experts make the fnial blessing on it...Paul FYI - Kelly Field was & is in San Antonio, Texas. Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker502 Posted July 10, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 10, 2009 Sorry for my geographical error on this, either way the Air Service was prominent in Texas and the pieces seem to fit..Just my 2 cents Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted July 10, 2009 Excelltn info, I was hoping not so rare so I could afford them, but alas they may not be mine after all.... So can you ghuys scratch your heads and guess at a value in this current market? "Baker502" saw two for sale....any idea of what they were asking and or what they sold for? Thanks again guys, it's appreciated, 151mg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker502 Posted July 10, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 10, 2009 One was a bullion wing the other metal and both were on Ebay, I do not remember what they went for as they don't fall into an area I collect so I just watched them during the auction.. Sorry Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted July 10, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 10, 2009 One was a bullion wing the other metal and both were on Ebay, I do not remember what they went for as they don't fall into an area I collect so I just watched them during the auction.. Sorry Paul According to both Art Gregg and Duncan Campbell, the bullion fighting observer wing (at least the one shown in Duncan's book) was basically a one-of-a-kinder. I believe on of the "fighting observers" had it made special order and that (according to the best that I can recall) only one of the bullion wings was actually ever made. Thus, unless that was the specific wing, it is possible that the one on ebay was a reproduction. I never saw that auction so I don't know. I also think based on a conversation about those wings, the metal fighting observer wing was only made for a few individuals and thus is likely even more rare than the WWI bombing wing. It was my impression that only the Dunham version of this wing was made. But it is possible that I am incorrect. I do recall a couple of obvious fakes here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...21830&st=20 see post 21. I agree, the WWI wing is very nice, so I wonder why they would add the torch? Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted July 10, 2009 According to both Art Gregg and Duncan Campbell, the bullion fighting observer wing (at least the one shown in Duncan's book) was basically a one-of-a-kinder. I believe on of the "fighting observers" had it made special order and that (according to the best that I can recall) only one of the bullion wings was actually ever made. Thus, unless that was the specific wing, it is possible that the one on ebay was a reproduction. I never saw that auction so I don't know. I also think based on a conversation about those wings, the metal fighting observer wing was only made for a few individuals and thus is likely even more rare than the WWI bombing wing. It was my impression that only the Dunham version of this wing was made. But it is possible that I am incorrect. I do recall a couple of obvious fakes here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...21830&st=20 see post 21. I agree, the WWI wing is very nice, so I wonder why they would add the torch? Patrick VALUE??? 151mg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted July 10, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 10, 2009 VALUE??? 151mg Who knows? The Linz wing is a very nice wing and likely would be a wing that sells upwards of the $1500 level if it were on ebay. Last one I saw on ebay, went for closer to 2K. But...with the economy as it is...it is hard to say that it would reach that level. A similar wing in the Campbell collection sold closer to 3K. But that was a big auction of a well known collector. As to rarity, the WWI balloon wings and bombardier wings all sold for 4K or more. But in those cases, you had to think of the premium of the wings being IDed and coming from Duncan Campbell's collection. I would expect a real fighting observer wing in the Dunham pattern to sell in the 4-5K range, especially if it was IDed to a specific pilot or had some other serious provenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted July 10, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 10, 2009 Who knows? The Linz wing is a very nice wing and likely would be a wing that sells upwards of the $1500 level if it were on ebay. Last one I saw on ebay, went for closer to 2K. But...with the economy as it is...it is hard to say that it would reach that level. A similar wing in the Campbell collection sold closer to 3K. But that was a big auction of a well known collector. As to rarity, the WWI balloon wings and bombardier wings all sold for 4K or more. But in those cases, you had to think of the premium of the wings being IDed and coming from Duncan Campbell's collection. I would expect a real fighting observer wing in the Dunham pattern to sell in the 4-5K range, especially if it was IDed to a specific pilot or had some other serious provenance. "Serious Provenance" is of course the key factor here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted July 11, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 11, 2009 "Serious Provenance" is of course the key factor here.... Amen to that! :nerv0003: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share #20 Posted July 11, 2009 Amen to that! :nerv0003: Provenance :think: Sorry, I usually collect items where provanance is not that big of an issue (US (did so German) inf. enlisted), an item was real or fake, it belonged to an individual or unit marked indicating strong military experience or that they stayed home.... condition always a factor. So from one other source I have contacted and the current market being stinkola! The value is based on the following: 1) they are real wings, the torch is supicious in that only one is known to have been made. Tourch may have been addition (eventhough they look to be origional to the wings, the cuts match etc) 2) they date to possibly 1919 Texas at the earliest 3) if real they are rarer than hens teeth 4) while they came with a photo of Kenneth Marr and other small uniform wings they are probably not attributable to Kenneth Marr in that he was a senior pilot and not a fighting observer. 5) the wings an an unofficial design and custom made, possibly an alteration of a real wing (but as I have held the wing, the alteration was VERY professionally done as it looks origional to the wing, and I have been collecting (not wings) but militaria for 30+ years, this looks perfect, not an abortion done by a hack trying make a buck). so: With OUT provenance, they are suspicious wings with a vlaue of $800 to $1,500 (max) WITH provenance they could be $4,000 to $5,000! the difference in value has me stumped, :think: SO based on the above do I have this down right? I appreciate all the imput, just want to make sure I got this down correctly thanks 151mg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share #21 Posted July 13, 2009 Actually good new for my friend, he said that he took the photo out of the frame and it said on the back 6-7-1920, lt. Wilson about to take a para. jump. Clark field. Dont know who Lt. Wilson is the plane in the other photo is an early bomber (not sure of the type) and the name matched a presentation M1902 sword that was with the group. The sword is sngraved on the back of the handle and not the blade. So not Kenneth Marr but Wilson and now a group. I also told him that it has got to be worht over $2,500 even if Lt. Wilson was a real do nothing schmo and to hold on to it till the market improves. What do you think smart move... anyone know who Lt. Wilson is. Thanks 151mg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now