K.G. LUKE OBSERVER 3" WING - Reproduction

[joshypogi]

Good Afternoon Everyone!!!

 

Here is my most recent arrival from Ebay. I was wondering if the company's logo in the reverese is laser cut, does anybody have a second opinion? Seller has a 7 day return policy just in case.

 

Thank you,

Jason

[joshypogi]

More pics...

[jbet38]

Good Afternoon Everyone!!!

 

Here is my most recent arrival from Ebay. I was wondering if the company's logo in the reverese is laser cut, does anybody have a second opinion? Seller has a 7 day return policy just in case.

 

Thank you,

Jason

 

Jason,

 

I'll be the first to say it, these wings don't look right.

 

Like the suspect Angus & Coote wings we've recently seen on eBay, these wings have microscopically perfect markings, absolutely no wear, and picture-perfect construction that defies WWII manufacturing conditions and abilities.

 

I wouldn't want them in my collection.

[KurtA]

Jason,

 

I'll be the first to say it, these wings don't look right.

 

Like the suspect Angus & Coote wings we've recently seen on eBay, these wings have microscopically perfect markings, absolutely no wear, and picture-perfect construction that defies WWII manufacturing conditions and abilities.

 

I wouldn't want them in my collection.

Totally agree.

Kurt

[Gary Cain]

Modern reproduction by the same crew who are making the Angus & Coote wings.

[joshypogi]

Thank you for the responses, that is what is suspected as well and I just needed that second opinion. The wing is on its way back to the seller. This forum truly is a big help for upcoming collectors and I am now learning great deal.

[John Cooper]

I am a little late to this thread but it appears your question has been answered. I have posted several of these aussie wings for folks because of the high number in the last year +\- being sold by lots of folks on ebay.

 

I contacted one who I have exchanged emails before just to see if he migh provide a bit more info but no go... I have noticed that the prices have be cut in half by the flood of these wings for sale.

 

One knowledgable collector I discussed this with mentioned that they are being sold for $50 each... so if this is true they are still making a decent profit and poluting the market. I guess theses are the new Meyers wings. :think:

 

John

[jbet38]

I am a little late to this thread but it appears your question has been answered. I have posted several of these aussie wings for folks because of the high number in the last year +\- being sold by lots of folks on ebay.

 

I contacted one who I have exchanged emails before just to see if he migh provide a bit more info but no go... I have noticed that the prices have be cut in half by the flood of these wings for sale.

 

One knowledgable collector I discussed this with mentioned that they are being sold for $50 each... so if this is true they are still making a decent profit and poluting the market. I guess theses are the new Meyers wings. :think:

 

John

 

John,

 

Your efforts to publicize suspect Angus & Coote wings on eBay will do a great deal of good in spreading the alarm, first through this Forum and eventually to others as well.

 

By word of mouth, these modern "impositions" will earn their place in collecting infamy, becoming as you say "the new Meyer wings."

 

Thanks to you and other alert posters on USMF, we've all learned a lot about this new threat from Down Under, and what it looks like up close.

 

We should all continue sreading the warning to collectors about these and other bogus Aussie wings.

[pfrost]

John,

 

Your efforts to publicize suspect Angus & Coote wings on eBay will do a great deal of good in spreading the alarm, first through this Forum and eventually to others as well.

 

By word of mouth, these modern "impositions" will earn their place in collecting infamy, becoming as you say "the new Meyer wings."

 

Thanks to you and other alert posters on USMF, we've all learned a lot about this new threat from Down Under, and what it looks like up close.

 

We should all continue sreading the warning to collectors about these and other bogus Aussie wings.

 

I have been hearing that the J. R. Gaunt wings are being faked for about 3-4 years now, but only recently (within the last year or year and a half) that the Angus and Coote wings were being faked. That then quickly moved on to the "news" that the Luke wings are also being faked. Most people seem to think that the "tell" on these fake wings is that the are too good and too crisp to be from the 40's.

 

I have a couple of Angus and Coote wings that I got many years ago, but mine are pretty grubby and both have been damaged by having the pins and broken off and in one case someone for some reason made an aborted attempt to saw one in half..... :crying: I don't have any Luke wings in my collection.

 

Still, it would be nice to see some side by side comparisons of the supposed new wings to ones that are vintage WWII.

 

Not that I disagree with the conventional wisdom, but I have frequently seen a type of mob mentality form around some type of wings, especially when a large number appear. Someone typically says that he heard from a friend who knows the guy who saw the guy buy the old dies from the defunct company and is now churning them out of his garage. I am sure that this is more than likely true....but I have also seen times when this was NOT the case and someone had simply found old stock or an unknown supply of wings that were stored away.

 

Anyone have any good wings they would like to post so we can compare?

 

Patrick

[pconrad02]

I would really like to know who the seller is on these, because frankly, they look OK to me. I see dings and scratches, and a decent patina. The c-catch looks good and the hallmark is sharp not like these that have been posted on another thread as fakes:

 

I would seriously consider buying these, I have 2 good Angus & Coote wings, that I have owned for a number of years, and they are very sharp and crisp, does that mean they are now fake? :think:

 

Paul

[joshypogi]

I would really like to know who the seller is on these, because frankly, they look OK to me. I see dings and scratches, and a decent patina. The c-catch looks good and the hallmark is sharp not like these that have been posted on another thread as fakes:

 

I would seriously consider buying these, I have 2 good Angus & Coote wings, that I have owned for a number of years, and they are very sharp and crisp, does that mean they are now fake? :think:

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Yours look about the same as I posted from the back. The seller has another luke observer for sale on ebay right now the item number is 190320063564. A really nice replica if it is.

 

Jason

[KurtA]

I would really like to know who the seller is on these, because frankly, they look OK to me. I see dings and scratches, and a decent patina. The c-catch looks good and the hallmark is sharp not like these that have been posted on another thread as fakes:

 

I would seriously consider buying these, I have 2 good Angus & Coote wings, that I have owned for a number of years, and they are very sharp and crisp, does that mean they are now fake? :think:

 

Paul

Paul-

I compared my $2 Angus & Coote original that I bought at a flea market 25 years ago to one of the new fakes. The only differences I could see were the hallmark and finish. The hallmark on the fake is crisp and perfect. The original hallmark isn't quite as good. The fakes also have a nice dark finish. The rest of the wing, including the hinge and catch seemed identical to me.

Kurt

[pconrad02]

Guys,

 

I know this seller, he is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there , I have bought several high end wings from him over the years and have NEVER had an issue with anything. He is one of the few dealers I don't question. He has been doing this for along time and so moves a lot of old colletions. If he says the wing is good it is!

 

Paul

[pfrost]

Guys,

 

I know this seller, he is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there , I have bought several high end wings from him over the years and have NEVER had an issue with anything. He is one of the few dealers I don't question. He has been doing this for along time and so moves a lot of old colletions. If he says the wing is good it is!

 

Paul

 

I don't know who the dealers is, but the other wings he shows do not look that bad to me. IFF real, the prices are pretty darn good.

 

Patrick

[John Cooper]

John,

 

Your efforts to publicize suspect Angus & Coote wings on eBay will do a great deal of good in spreading the alarm, first through this Forum and eventually to others as well.

 

By word of mouth, these modern "impositions" will earn their place in collecting infamy, becoming as you say "the new Meyer wings."

 

Thanks to you and other alert posters on USMF, we've all learned a lot about this new threat from Down Under, and what it looks like up close.

 

We should all continue sreading the warning to collectors about these and other bogus Aussie wings.

 

Thanks - just to add more info I have seen a few sellers selling the aussie wings one a week or every other week consistantly which makes you really wonder. I do not know if they are using the old dies, new dies, or that have taken a laser scan created a 3D model and then had them maunfactured.

 

I recently was at a local tech fair that had all the equiptment to fab a wing or anything else you want. The fact of the matter a lage amount of these wings have been hitting the market and some sellers seem to have several examples all exactly the same how can this be?

 

Someone found a trove of new old stock or they are having them made :think: I did some recent research on fake coin being stuck in China that you can not tell the difference. By law the maker has to make them to show they are newly made but the article I was reading stated this specific seller would sell them unmarked.

 

One of the tells was the weight not being exact or the fac the coin was not made of the right silver... not sure too many folks have the ability to weed out these types of reproductions espicall since they are stuck like any other coin or for that matter wing.

 

John

[KurtA]

Guys,

 

I know this seller, he is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there , I have bought several high end wings from him over the years and have NEVER had an issue with anything. He is one of the few dealers I don't question. He has been doing this for along time and so moves a lot of old colletions. If he says the wing is good it is!

 

Paul

Paul-

Perhaps he can shed some light as to where the wing came from? In looking at it, aside from the hallmark, it sure does look like the Angus & Coote fake. I wouldn't buy it.

I've never seen this circular Luke hallmark before. Does anyone have any documented originals that are like this? If this is something that just came on the scene, I'd be even more suspicious.

Kurt

[Gary Cain]

The Angus & Coote fakes becan showing up two and a half years ago. They are easy to spot from both the front and the back. The front is more angular than the originals and the back uses a laser cut hallmark. The K.G. Luke hallmark on this wing is a brand new one. I have about 35 pieces of WWII insignia by Luke left out of 180 or so that I purchased way back when and NONE of them look like this. With all do respect to Paul Cs seller, this is a modern reproduction.

 

There a four types of K.G.Luke insignia that I have encountered and they can be found here

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...20&start=20

[rustywings]

I think Joshypogi returned an authentic WWII era K.G. Luke Observer's wing. If the wing is still available, and the price within my means, I would buy it.

[KurtA]

I think Joshypogi returned an authentic WWII era K.G. Luke Observer's wing. If the wing is still available, and the price within my means, I would buy it.

Russ-

I think you made an excellent case for this hallmark existing in WW2. HOWEVER, the hallmark you provided in the other thread and the hallmark on Joshpogi's wing are rather different. Josphpogi's is more flat and crisp. It has that clean look of the infamous fake Angus & Coote wings. Also, look closely at the 2 "half moons" within the hallmarks. Your's has pebbling within those 2 half moons. Joshpogi's example does not.

I still believe Joshpogi's wing is a fake - mainly due to that clean "lasered" look of the hallmark. And, the hallmarks being different is a big red flag to me.

Just my humble uninformed opinion.......

Kurt

[rustywings]

Kurt-

You're absolutely right about the sublte differences between the two wings. Looking at a two-dimensional image does mask a great bit of detail, but I'm not seeing anything that waives a red flag of warning. I believe the differences between the two wings may have been caused by a variance in the pounds of pressure used with the initial die-strike. What I do like about the wing is the seemingly natural wear and natural patina; the burnish marks seen along some of the edges; and the near identical pin, barrel hinge and catch as seen on other examples of K.G. Lukes produced wings. For me, the one detail that scores big points towards it being authentic is the way the barrel hinge is applied to the back of the wing. It is attached in the same fashion as the other K.G. Luke examples. I don't know squat about laser reproductions...and that may be my collecting downfall. Has laser technology arrived at that point where it's cost effective to reproduce military insignia for unsuspecting collectors?

 

Russ

[KurtA]

Kurt-

I don't know squat about laser reproductions...and that may be my collecting downfall. Has laser technology arrived at that point where it's cost effective to reproduce military insignia for unsuspecting collectors?

 

Russ

Russ-

I don't claim to know anything about "laser technology" either, but based on the amount of fake British Campaign Medals and fake German badges out there that are laser copies, I have to think it is cost effective for the fakers who are looking to make a buck. Especially in this case when you consider a nice "Australian-made" wing can easily go for a few hundred $.

I used to think I had a pretty good handle on telling good from bad. But, based on what I've been seeing in the past couple of years, I don't. That's the main reason I won't buy high end patches or wings (especially WW1 wings) at a militaria show any longer. The qauality of fakes has progressed beyond what I can detect.

Kurt

[JDK]

Russ-

I don't claim to know anything about "laser technology" either, but based on the amount of fake British Campaign Medals and fake German badges out there that are laser copies, I have to think it is cost effective for the fakers who are looking to make a buck. Especially in this case when you consider a nice "Australian-made" wing can easily go for a few hundred $.

I used to think I had a pretty good handle on telling good from bad. But, based on what I've been seeing in the past couple of years, I don't. That's the main reason I won't buy high end patches or wings (especially WW1 wings) at a militaria show any longer. The qauality of fakes has progressed beyond what I can detect.

Kurt

 

 

It is scary, isn't it. I'm mainly a flight gear/uniform collector and a small time wing collector at best, but with what I've been seeing, it's concerning to say the least. Fakes all over the place, and many are pretty convincing. It may very well be the death of wing collecting as we know it. Always having to question the rare makers, ect. The only wings I have gotten recently are the ones that have come with groupings. I feel sorry for the poor guys that will be trying to figure it all out 25 years from now when even the common maker wings are faked to no end!

JD

[pfrost]

It is scary, isn't it. I'm mainly a flight gear/uniform collector and a small time wing collector at best, but with what I've been seeing, it's concerning to say the least. Fakes all over the place, and many are pretty convincing. It may very well be the death of wing collecting as we know it. Always having to question the rare makers, ect. The only wings I have gotten recently are the ones that have come with groupings. I feel sorry for the poor guys that will be trying to figure it all out 25 years from now when even the common maker wings are faked to no end!

JD

 

I guess I am simply not as cynical as some of you fellows.

 

When I first started collecting around 1990, any number of collectors told me the same basic thing....WORST...TIME....EVER...To collect. Over the years, I did a lot of reading, handled a lot of wings, played a very careful strategy on eBay, and stopped even attending most militaria and gun shows. During all the time, each year someone would tell me that they felt sorry for collectors. But, I continue to find a fair number of nice wings.

 

It has been my experience that the really major thing that changed for me as I progressed from a wide eyed newbie to a more serious and educated collector is that may patience increased and I was more willing to wait and think about a purchase rather than just jump into the fray, feet first. I have also found that often time, wing collecting "truths" was more often dependent on who yelled the loudest rather than real scholarship. In fact, I have found that the quality and quantity of wings I add to my collection have actually increased over the last few years. My feeling is that this is a pretty good time to be a collector.

 

My opinion, humbly stated, is that to many people are in to much of a rush to amass wings before knowing what they are doing. They tend to rely on "expert" opinions, buy from venues that are very risky (militaria shows), and lack the hands on experience that makes

telling the fakes from the good wings easier. They also lose sight of the most important thing about collecting...you should only collect what you like and always at a price you want to pay.

 

I think to many people rely on what other people tell them before they have enough evidence of their own. The Luke wings are a perfect example of that. I have yet to see any "proof" that these are being reproduced. The evidence, as it is, is rather circumstantial. Mostly, "I haven't seen this before" or "To many are showing up right now for me to be comfortable with buying one". This isn't evidence of fakery--but I do agree that perhaps it is a warning sign, for sure. But, what you end up with is a circular argument.

 

1) I am concerned about this wing because I see to many like it right now for me to think it is legit.

2) But it looks just like a real one!

3) Which if it were a fake wing made to look so much like a real one then someone must be using old dies or using new "super-laser technology" to make the fakes.

4) The technology makes it impossible for me to tell the difference, thus I think the wing is a fake.

5) If they use that technology, then the whole hobby is screwed.

 

But, the main problem is that the first argument may be flawed. I would ask is it is only an impression that more of these wings are showing up, or is it a fact? How do you know? For example, once we start LOOKING for these wings, we tend to find them. This reinforces our original observation, which may have been incorrect to begin with.

 

Finally, the idea of laser cutting, is something I hear people talking about, but have yet to see any evidence. For example, why would a company with the resources to make these wings, not simply exploit the market themselves and make and sell their own line of reproductions? Has anyone found any source of laser-cut wings? I can find lots of rather obviously cast wings (ie. *************** Gallery), but I have never seen someone actually selling a laser-cut wing, have you?

 

BTW, how does laser cutting work? I have seen them cut metal plates into shapes, but have real doubts that a laser can cut the fine details of a wing, with the exact feathering and measurements required. If they could, you would likely see all sorts of neat things being carved into metal. I simply don't know, but my feeling is that the "laser-technology is bugaboo of collectors as a catch all for fears of reproductions.

 

Best

 

Patrick

[jcastellanos4]

Patrick..Thanks for shining a beacon of hope for us collectors.. :thumbsup: Can anyone provide some evidence of this laser-technology gizmo?? It is mind-boggling to be able to achieve that much precision, and if these are repros.. let's just say we have our work cut out for us. Hobbyist will be scepticle of every wing and the actual worth of Aussie wings and the like will plumit.. like the Meyers. My guess is.. worst case scenario.. the once-hard-2-find wings will be seeping into the market in numbers. Ebay will become the natural habitat for fakes, and no-one will have the time to sort through the flood of ads looking for something 'legit'. They all look pretty darn original and are fresh out of grandpa's estate. Only the most experienced of collectors will know when and what to buy. may not be in the near future but who knows.

Get out your test kits and white gloves to see if this one is legit. :crying:

 

my 2 cents..

Joe