Wing collecting myths and urban legends....

[pfrost]

The previous thread about AMCRAFT wings got me thinking about some of old wing collector's lore. I thought it would be fun for people to share old stories of wing collecting myths and urban legends. Those hidden stashes of unissued Luxenberg wings in the original boxes, the discovery of old stock in the basement of a defunct uniform store, a trunk found in a barn filled up with old bullion patches.

 

When I first started collecting in the early 90's a number of the "old dealers" such as Art Gregg and Russ Huff told me that they felt bad about new collectors, that they would never have the chance at easy collecting, and that the fakes were so numerous at the gun and militaria shows that they out numbered the real deals. Still, we still had the Great Western Gun Show (perhaps the largest gun show west of the Mississippi, with 3 days of hunting through 6 or 7 HUGE buildings) full of really neat stuff. Also, eBay was just in its infancy, and some of the best deals around could be found there. I remember spending my lunch hour looking through ALL the militaria entries and recall seeing Luxenbergs, CNAC, flying tiger, WWI and all sorts of WWII wings getting sold for some really cheap prices.

 

Still, in the 90's, I would sometimes hear of old collections and old finds that were the stuff of legends. Russ Huff talks about some of these collections going up for sale in one of his books. I heard stories of Duncan Campbell befriending the families of old wing manufacturers and getting access to their old stock for almost nothing. I even heard the stories of people who had gotten some of these old companies to reissue wings made from the original dies and even of guys who had bought the old dies and were making a quick buck or two by making the wings themselves. It always seemed that the days of finding rare wings cheaply were long gone. Furthermore, because of the fakes and reproductions, every purchase seemed to need to have very careful vetting and rigorous analysis to avoid being cheated. You either went at it alone, trying to learn by trail or error, or maybe you were lucky and found a dealer or more advanced collector who you trusted to steer you the right way (or not). A forum like this would have been a god-send!

 

One "myth" that I heard repeatedly, was that ONLY pin back and sterling silver wings were from WWII. That clutch back wings were ALWAYS post war. It is silly now, but back then, you heard that a fair amount of the time from dealers and other collectors. In fact, I bought some really good wings really cheaply because I knew better. Still, that was a persistent and wide spread myth for many years (I don't think it ever was really put to rest until the first Silver Wings book came out.

 

As I said, since those early days, a couple of things have changed that makes me think that the past decade or so has been pretty good for collectors. First, the amount of good information is a thousand fold more available than it was in the past (this forum as a case in point). Second, while eBay has its problems, the access to wings has also substantially increased than from the old days.

 

Since I started collecting, I have seen a couple of big collections go on the market (such as the Flayderman and Campbell collection) with wings that people told me were basically unavailable, becoming available. Also the "Million Dollar Collection" was sold that garnered much fan fare and discussion...as much for the number of fakes as for the rarity of some of the items it seems.

 

I have seen "old new stock" come into the market. In California, a ton of AMCRAFT snowflake wings flooded the market about 10 years ago. Also in California, a silver plate dealer found a large box of 1935 vintage TWA wings in an old shoe box and was selling them for months one or two at a time.

 

In San Diego, the Donna Wosk began to liquidate their father's old uniform supply store with a huge amount of old stock made available over the last few years. Of course, now it is hard to find any deals, but I guess one day it will all be gone and distributed.

 

Finally, had heard of a guy (in Texas IIRC) who had found some old stock WWI wings. Early in my collecting career, I believe I ran across this guy selling the last of the wings on the internet (for a rather good price) but lacking in knowledge and funds, didn't pull the trigger. Parts of this story are related in Terry Morris' book, but he has a more jaundiced view and thinks that perhaps the wings were fake. Still, having seen at least 3 or 4 situations in which similar events proved true, perhaps this was actually true? Maybe someone else knows that story better....

 

Share some of your urban legends of wing collecting.

PFrost

[pfrost]

This also reminds me of a true story about when I found what I thought was the perfect USN pilot grouping collecting score when I was a bit more than a novice collector, but still not all that advanced.

 

I had yet to find a "named" wing or grouping at one of my local flea markets and was feeling bad about that. Then, one day, I came across a dealer who had 3 mint in the box USN NANCO hallmarked wings (see picture). Also in the grouping was a minty bullion wing and a name tag. So, after buying up all the goodies the lady told me that she thought she could get more stuff from his estate, so I thought I had a wonderful score and I was planning on looking up the gentleman's phone number and was set to call him up and see if maybe I could talk to him about his service. The next weekend, while at another flea market, walking around I saw a nice USN leather jacket...with the man's name on it! Then, at another booth, I saw a nice minty pair of flight boots and leather gloves...with the man's name on it! Then a few booths down, ANOTHER flight jacket and a uniform...with the man's name on it! I kid you not, about 5 different dealers ALL had stuff from this guy, including multiple flight suits and flight jackets.

 

That night, I called up the number I found in the phone book and talked the man's brother. He told me that his brother was a pilot but didn't finish his flight training until just before the war was over and never went overseas. At that time, he was in the VA hospital and wasn't doing so well and I was asked not to contact him because it would upset him. Apparently, the pilot had been temporarily assigned to the supply office at the flight school and had issued himself a ton of stuff (such as 4 or 5 flight suits and leather jackets) that he kept after the war in his basement in a couple of big barrels (IIRC). When is estate was liquidated, it all went out into the general population! Every so often, I still see stuff with his name on it out here. :ermm:

 

So my unique, once in a life time USN pilot grouping was not as unique as I had hoped. Still, I enjoy the wings.

[Dave G]

Thanks for a potentially very interesting thread. I commend you for your efforts to always keep this forum interesting and fresh at a time when all the forums I read seem to be suffering from the summer doldrums.

 

The new/old stock in Texas you referred to in your post is probably the one turned up in San Antonio several years back. Though I was living in Dallas at the time and never had a shot at any of it, several of my San Antonio and Austin friends were able to find wonderful items. As you know San Antonio has historically been a military town since the early days of Texas with several bases and air installations in the immediate neighborhood. Obviously there would have been more than a few shops catering to filling the uniform and insignia needs of the servicemen in the area. The story as it was related to me is that the old stock of one such store had been stored by relatives in a garage for years and they decided essentially to have a garage sale. Word spread fast and the local collectors descended upon them and many wonderful bits and pieces of wings, insignia, etc. were purchased.

 

Dave

[pconrad02]

Patrick,

 

Great topic, I will have to ponder this one. The clutchback wings is the most common one I know of.

Most of the others, like the NOS Whitehead and Hoag on the orginal card ATC wings ( that showed up on eBay) and caches of JR Gaunt wings found in the basement tailor shop in Bristol (or fill the blank with the UK city of your choice) are stories started by fakers to support the sudden influx of really rare wings on the market. One of my favorite myth sources are the two eBay sellers with the never ending supply of "engraved" wings we have posted here for time to time.

 

 

Paul

[pfrost]

Here are two urban legends that I have heard over the years. I believe them to be urban legends because I have heard different variations along the same themes.

 

1). A guy is doing his normal weekend garage sale hunting and stops at a house with an elderly gentleman sitting on a lawn chair. He asks if any military related items are for sale and the old man says that he has nothing, but his father was a WWI pilot and he thinks the wings are still in the garage somewhere. The collector starts to get excited and says he would really be interested in buying the wings if they were available. The old fellow says "Those old things? Heck, if I can find them, you can just have them.". So the two head off into the garage to look for the WWI wings, with the collector in a near swoon (dry mouth, heart pounding and sweaty palms) with the grand luck he is having. Once in the garage, it is everything the collector hoped for, old boxes, trunks and tools every where. The old man says that he believes his father kept his wings over by the work bench so they start to go that way. When they get to the bench (which is covered in old cans full of nails and cigar boxes of stuff), the old man says, "If you can pull them down you can have them".....The collector looks up and sees over the work bench, with a large galvanized nail driven through the center of each wing, are 3 or 4 beautiful silver WWI wings nailed to a cross beam...totally ruined! I heard this story a few years ago by another collector back east, but have recently heard variations (such as WWII squadron patches stapled to the wall, or medals nailed to a beam). I suspect that this story is derived from stuff that people said they have found in old VFW halls nailed or stapled to the walls.

 

2) This is actually a story I first heard many years ago, but told in relation to Civil War uniform collectors. A few years ago, I heard a similar story in relation to a WWI aviator's uniform. Basically, the story goes that a rather "morally casual" militaria dealer is out in the hinterlands of the midwest hunting through old barns and farm houses for militaria. He stops at a farm and asks the farmer if he has any old military uniforms or guns and the farmer says he has his Uncle's old WWI pilot uniform in the barn. They go to look and in a trunk of old clothes, they find the uniform with all bullion insignia, a great bullion wing and a nice patch on the shoulder. The only thing is that the uniform has some slight mothing. Being kind of sleazy, the militaria dealer quickly tells the farmer that he buys and sells old uniforms but he is worried that the mothing in the uniform ruins its value....BUT since the farmer went to all the trouble of pulling out the old trunk, he said "I'll give you $20 for the uniform because maybe I can sell the buttons.". The farmer quickly agrees, then the dealer realizes that he left his wallet in the car and excuses himself to go get it so he can pay. While he is gone, the farmer's wife comes out and the farmer, in disbelief of HIS good luck getting $20 for an old musty jacket, tells his wife. While they are standing there, a little moth flies by, and the wife quickly says "Better not let the city guy see that moth or he wont want to buy you Uncle Cleatus' jacket!", the farmer agrees, quickly cuts off the buttons and tosses the uniform into the furnace where it begins to burn up. When the dealer comes back, proud of having cheated another poor farmer, he finds the wife and farmer standing in front of the furnace with a tin can full of his buttons!

 

In the previous incarnations of this story, it is usually a Yankee carpet bagger militaria dealer trying to buy the crafty southern farmer's Great Uncle's Confederate General's uniform, but the details to the story are similar.

 

Patrick

[FW12]

A couple of years ago, I got a call from a gentleman in New Jersey who runs an business selling original items for the collector/re-enactor. His call was in reference to trying to buy my hat collection wholesale (YEAH RIGHT!). We got to talking and he told me how he had been collecting since the late 40s. He was a WWII vet and had the wherewithal after the war to start buying up aircraft parts, uniforms, anything military, in bulk. I joked, "well if you got some Luxenberg wings, I'll trade you a hat or two," to which he responded, "wings? I got a million of them" (my paraphrase). He said he had thousands of wings that he purchased back in the 40s and 50s of all makes, but specifically Amcraft. If he's telling the truth, maybe one day these wings will all hit the market. Until then, I'll believe it when I see it!

 

 

Beau

 

 

And in case you were wondering: no, he didn't trade me those Luxenberg wings.

[jbet38]

A couple of years ago, I got a call from a gentleman in New Jersey who runs an business selling original items for the collector/re-enactor. His call was in reference to trying to buy my hat collection wholesale (YEAH RIGHT!). We got to talking and he told me how he had been collecting since the late 40s. He was a WWII vet and had the wherewithal after the war to start buying up aircraft parts, uniforms, anything military, in bulk. I joked, "well if you got some Luxenberg wings, I'll trade you a hat or two," to which he responded, "wings? I got a million of them" (my paraphrase). He said he had thousands of wings that he purchased back in the 40s and 50s of all makes, but specifically Amcraft. If he's telling the truth, maybe one day these wings will all hit the market. Until then, I'll believe it when I see it!

Beau

And in case you were wondering: no, he didn't trade me those Luxenberg wings.

 

 

Beau,

 

Great story.

 

It's surprising that any super-large hoard of sterling-silver wings survived the 1970s, when the Hunt brothers of Texas actively tried to corner the silver bullion market, causing the value of silver to rise from under $2 to over $50 a Troy ounce.

 

As scrap.

 

As a consequence, it was during that decade that thousands of silver coins, wings, badges, and household silver items of every kind, both modern and antique, were unceremoniously consigned to the precious-metals wholesalers, to be melted down and cashed in during that period now known as the great Silver Bubble.

 

Since those silver wings weren't sold as scrap then, maybe their owner missed that opportunity and held onto them, hoping the price of silver would magically rise again.

 

He wouldn't be the only one to wish for a return of the Silver Bubble. But, as we now know, it never happened.

 

So, maybe those silver wings are still in storage, waiting to be disposed of.

[rb3586]

If the dealer is Allan Bass, it is probably true. He had an argument about wings one time with a dealer, at the old Toms River gun Show. He left and came back with half a grocery bag of sterling wings all types, to prove his point.

 

He is famous for bargaining, in other words everything you have to sell, is junk, but my stuff (once I own it) is pure gold. He is rumored to have a barn full of aviation stuff, at a top dollar. I wouldn't doubt it.

[Orgone]

If the dealer is Allan Bass, it is probably true. He had an argument about wings one time with a dealer, at the old Toms River gun Show. He left and came back with half a grocery bag of sterling wings all types, to prove his point.

 

He is famous for bargaining, in other words everything you have to sell, is junk, but my stuff (once I own it) is pure gold. He is rumored to have a barn full of aviation stuff, at a top dollar. I wouldn't doubt it.

 

That's so funny, being from NJ running into Allan Bass was a regular event in my life for decades. If you ever ran into a guy who resembled the circus clown Emmett Kelly (no insult intended) in a tan jumpsuit trying to buy $500. items for $50. you'll remember him.

I have to agree with rb3586, Allan had/has the stuff. If anyone has a barn full of wings, it's him.

The man is a legend.

He was still advertising to buy aviation stuff up to about 2 years ago. I haven't heard anything about him since.

Everytime I sold him something, I said to myself "I just sold it tooo cheap"! :w00t:

I was around for the big silver melt of 1980. In the 1970s you could still find boxes of sterling WW2 wings, insignia, sweetheart jewelry, etc. CHEAP in old shops in NY City, if you looked and asked. After 1980, it was all gone. :crying:

[pfrost]

I still hear from jewelry dealers when I ask for a price "Its STERLING" as if that makes it 100 X more valuable. I even have a few wings in which I think a fake sterling mark was added to raise the value of the wings.

 

While not strictly militaria, this is a true story about some of those old scrap wings that never made it into the smelter!

 

About 10 years ago in the Los Angeles area a silver ware dealer came up with a box of scrapped TWA wings (an example is shown) that he had found. For some reason, the box of wings was never smelted down, but it had about 30 wings vintage to 1935-1950 that were ready to go. Each of the wings had at one time been screw backs, but those had been clipped off to allow them to stack in the box. About 1/3 of the wings were just marked Sterling, 1/3 where marked VHB Sterling and 1/3 were marked STERLING BY BLACKINTON. He started selling them for about 35$ each, but eventually the price went up to about 75$ each. I ended up buying a bunch, but I recall an afternoon at the Long Beach flea market having a spirited discussion with 3 or 4 of "the boys" (some of the local militaria collectors). One or 2 were positive that the wings were fake, and one guy kept insisting that he actually KNEW the guy who was making them. The others fellows (including myself) were pretty sure they were good. Eventually, I got to see the box that they were in when the silver ware dealer bought them. It was a cardboard box that had a small label taped to the top with weight of the sterling items, the date of original purchase, the price paid for the silver scrap, and a place for the date of smelting that wasn't filled in because the box never got melted down!

 

Ironically, a few months later, I actually sold one of the extra wings (at a nice profit) to that fellow who insisted that they were fakes! As he was writing the check, I kept saying:

 

"Hey Mike, remember when you said that these wings were fake! Remember when you said that anyone who paid 35$ for those wings was a chump? Just make the check out to cash if you don't mind". :lol:

[Paul S]

During that big silver melt of 1980 I recall people lined up out the door of most coin shops that were buying scrap. My local shop had a convenient easy chair so I could sit comfortably and watch the parade dumping their stuff into big, white plastic buckets. There was every form of silver imaginable in their arms.

 

I sold a bunch of silver coins reasoning that the likelihood of ever being able to sell common halves for $20 and common quarters for $10 again, was remote. Although I don’t recall seeing anyone with bags of wings, I wouldn’t doubt that where they existed in quantity, they were probably sold for melt.

 

A common wing would probably have from 1.4X to 2X the silver contained in a half, so they were likely bringing $28 - $40 for melt. Bet a ton of wings went into the pot then. Come to think of it, that is probably why sterling USAF wings went the way of the Dodo bird about then.

[FW12]

That's so funny, being from NJ running into Allan Bass was a regular event in my life for decades. If you ever ran into a guy who resembled the circus clown Emmett Kelly (no insult intended) in a tan jumpsuit trying to buy $500. items for $50. you'll remember him.

I have to agree with rb3586, Allan had/has the stuff. If anyone has a barn full of wings, it's him.

The man is a legend.

He was still advertising to buy aviation stuff up to about 2 years ago. I haven't heard anything about him since.

Everytime I sold him something, I said to myself "I just sold it tooo cheap"! :w00t:

I was around for the big silver melt of 1980. In the 1970s you could still find boxes of sterling WW2 wings, insignia, sweetheart jewelry, etc. CHEAP in old shops in NY City, if you looked and asked. After 1980, it was all gone. :crying:

 

 

Y'all hit the nail on the head, it was Allan Bass who called me up. According to him, he's got several warehouses full of militaria, and judging by his website I don't doubt him. Anyhow, I'm glad to hear other's here have experienced Allan; talking to him is something else.

 

Beau

[KurtA]

Y'all hit the nail on the head, it was Allan Bass who called me up. According to him, he's got several warehouses full of militaria, and judging by his website I don't doubt him. Anyhow, I'm glad to hear other's here have experienced Allan; talking to him is something else.

 

Beau

The one time I saw Allan bring some wings to a show, it was all modern junk. Despite all his claims, I think most of it is just talk. No doubt he has a house full of "stuff", but it's no doubt quantity over quality.

Kurt

[DwightPruitt]

I have seen "old new stock" come into the market. In California, a ton of AMCRAFT snowflake wings flooded the market about 10 years ago. Also in California, a silver plate dealer found a large box of 1935 vintage TWA wings in an old shoe box and was selling them for months one or two at a time.

 

In the early 1990's, a dealer contacted someone who was at one time connected with the Gordon Miller Co. of Cincinnati and purchased about a hundred NOS Navy V-5 wings. IIRC at the time he was getting about $150 a piece for them at the OVMS shows.