IMPERIAL QUEST Posted June 29, 2009 Share #26 Posted June 29, 2009 The one thing that is not to clear in the posted photo is the fact that the Lt. is wearing a Sam Browne belt. (when did they stop wearing them?) John, after we got off of the phone, I did a little searching, and it looks lik the old memory didn't fail me this time...the date was 1942. Hope this helps somewhat in dating the uniform in the photo. In the book "US Army Uniforms of World War II" by Shelby L. Stanton, he states the following... "During 1942, the officer's coat was restyled to add a cloth self-belt at the coat's waistline fitted with a toungless bar buckle..." "...By the end of 1942, officers no longer had the choice of wearing M1921 officer's belt over the cloth self belt." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted July 3, 2009 Share #27 Posted July 3, 2009 Steve, Thanks for that update and the quote from the book. I took your advice and communicated with Gil (who suggested that book) and he said that based on the shirt and tie combination which we discussed he put this photo at 1939-40 +\- Now the following is a wing I suspect is very early war and maybe pre-war :think: I loosely base this on the massive thinkness and the brass pin. As for who made it..? :dunno: Thoughts? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share #28 Posted July 3, 2009 Hi John, I would agree, that this wing seems to be an early to mid war wing. The thing is, it is not an especially rare wing and I do encounter them on a regular basis, that makes me think that they are to common for the earlier, pre-war, time frame. On the other hand their size and construction makes me think the wings are more than likely early WWII time period. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 7, 2009 Share #29 Posted December 7, 2009 I missed picking these up this weekend. Thought they might be pre-WWII...any others with a thought about them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted December 8, 2009 Share #30 Posted December 8, 2009 Paul sorry you missed these. It would have been nice to see good photos. I wonder if the pin assembly is a replacement? The catch appears to be of a pre-ww2 type or should I say that I have see that catch on earlier era wings. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk3370 Posted December 8, 2009 Share #31 Posted December 8, 2009 The attached two uniforms belonged to Lt. William Van Dusen. The first is his 1919 transition tunic with standing collar and gold US and Wing and prop, he did not change out the buttons so I am assuming this was worn between 1919 and the early 1920's. The second tunic worn in the 1926 to mid 1930's time frame. Both wings are identical 3" tip to tip with pins that only open 3/4 of the way. Both unmarked except for word sterling. Lt. Van Dusen was killed in a bomber crash on maneuvers in Mexico around 1939. Lt William Van Dusen Van Dusen wing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted December 9, 2009 Share #32 Posted December 9, 2009 Terry, Nice additions to this thread! Your photos represent some interesting transitions in both the uniform and insignia. Thanks John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 9, 2009 Share #33 Posted December 9, 2009 Terry, thanks for your fine postings of Lt. Van Dusen's uniform. The wings, though not identical, are very close...the one I missed was not marked sterling. If I am understanding correctly, quite a lot of the between wars wings were not sterling. Paul S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk3370 Posted December 10, 2009 Share #34 Posted December 10, 2009 Terry, Nice additions to this thread! Your photos represent some interesting transitions in both the uniform and insignia. Thanks John John, As requested here is the back of the Van Dusen wing. Only markings are "sterling". Measures 3" tip to tip as opposed to the later 3 1/8" wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk3370 Posted December 10, 2009 Share #35 Posted December 10, 2009 Terry, thanks for your fine postings of Lt. Van Dusen's uniform. The wings, though not identical, are very close...the one I missed was not marked sterling. If I am understanding correctly, quite a lot of the between wars wings were not sterling. Paul S Paul, I think you are correct in that a number of between the wars wings were plated not sterling. Attached is a picture of Lt. Wesley Zellner's 1919 wing. Lt. Zellner was a WW1 RMA and served until 1923. Notice the fine feathering. Wing is 3" tip to tip, pin only opens 90 degrees. Not marked "sterling". Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted December 10, 2009 Share #36 Posted December 10, 2009 A beautiful wing! It appears to be an unmarked Kinney Company made wing similar to the one Patrick posted earlier in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted December 10, 2009 Share #37 Posted December 10, 2009 John,As requested here is the back of the Van Dusen wing. Only markings are "sterling". Measures 3" tip to tip as opposed to the later 3 1/8" wings. Thank you Sir! So this must have been the higher cost version compared to a brass wing that was silver plated. I know form looking at a 1930 dated Meyer catalog they offered the option. Oh if they could only be bought at those proces today! Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted December 23, 2009 Share #38 Posted December 23, 2009 BTW, do you know what the store is behind the marking "From official dies"? Where these Government issued wings from Government owned dies? Patrick Patrick, I do not have an answer for you but I will offer my best guess. I think that the Air Service wanted to standardize the insignia. Whatever company made them may have been required to mark them as such or simply put that on there as proof that it was the "approved" design. Now as for the design itself we may never know all the details but the those in charge of the Air Service must have submitted something to the General Staff for approval which eventually took the form of what we now know as the "Adam's" design which was pictured in National Geographic and Col. Wyllie's book from 1919. Hi Patrick, If a wing badge is backmarked "From Official Die" that means it came from the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia, PA, not an independent manufacturer. Cliff :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share #39 Posted December 23, 2009 Hi Patrick, If a wing badge is backmarked "From Official Die" that means it came from the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia, PA, not an independent manufacturer. Cliff :thumbsup: Thansk for the info Cliff! Have a Merry Christmas. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue88s Posted January 10, 2010 Share #40 Posted January 10, 2010 GREAT STUFF KEEP IT UP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted February 21, 2010 Share #41 Posted February 21, 2010 Here is another contribution to this thread that supports the time period of 1940 for one of the infrequently seen wings we've discussed earlier. The 3 wings shown represent those found from an estate of a pilot who was first rated in late 1939 or early 1940 and flew in the ATC during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted February 21, 2010 Share #42 Posted February 21, 2010 :bye1: Hi ya Paul, Not meaning to split hairs but this badge actually dates back a little earlier to 1939. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted February 21, 2010 Share #43 Posted February 21, 2010 :bye1: Hi ya Paul, Not meaning to split hairs but this badge actually dates back a little earlier to 1939. Cliff Hi Cliff, I probably should clarify...the years I noted on the picture are the years this particular pilot could have worn the wing. Perhaps the better approach would be to pin the date of the incised Meyer wing...would it have been an earlier wing, or concurrent with the (I've seen it called a White wing) White wing? I've been of the opinion that that the incised Meyer wing is older since those incised marks are also found on the 1919 government wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted June 5, 2010 Share #44 Posted June 5, 2010 I really like this thread so I wanted to bring it back to the top with some new additions that I think belong in this time period. The overall construction seems to me to fall within the late 30's to early 40's type but I would like other opinions. Cheers John Here is an additional detail shot of the shoulders and the shield. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCRECON Posted June 6, 2010 Share #45 Posted June 6, 2010 Great thread! I have a modest collection of wings but really don't know enough about the various patterns and subtleties to date most of them. The examples here may help me date some of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted June 6, 2010 Share #46 Posted June 6, 2010 I really like this thread so I wanted to bring it back to the top with some new additions that I think belong in this time period. The overall construction seems to me to fall within the late 30's to early 40's type but I would like other opinions. Cheers John I like the thickness of the badge an especially the brass pin. Time frame? Today it would be pure speculation to try and pinpoint an exact date within a 20-year time frame (1919-1941) but definately pre-WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted June 6, 2010 Share #47 Posted June 6, 2010 To old favorites from the early to mid-1920s: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCRECON Posted June 6, 2010 Share #48 Posted June 6, 2010 I've posted pics of my wings in the display ccase previously. These are wings that came affixed to uniforms. While I'm certainly not a wing expert, I think that at least dsome of them fall into this time period. Nest one. I think this one might be WW-II vintage. This one is clutchback with sterling clutrches. As such, it's late WW-II vintage but I'm not positive. I have three pairs that are almost identical to this set except that this paitr is gold-plated. Someone told me a while ago that gold wings denoted a flight instructor but I have no idea if that's accurate or not. This pair was not on a uniform but came with one. This pair was one of two that came with a unifiorm that had belonged to George Kenner in the 1920s. This pair was pinned on the blouse. This pair came with the Kenney uniform but were not pinned on it. The rest are Navy/Marine Corps wings that were in a separate display box. From a couple other examples, I'm guessing this full-sixed wing is from the 20s, though when I bought it about 10-15 years ago I was told WW-I This pair is very similar to the pair above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted June 7, 2010 Share #49 Posted June 7, 2010 I like the thickness of the badge an especially the brass pin. Time frame? Today it would be pure speculation to try and pinpoint an exact date within a 20-year time frame (1919-1941) but definately pre-WWII. Thanks Cliff! As for the two wings you posted they are very nice indeed and loot to be in mint condition! IIRC Duncan Campbell placed that pattern as early as 1920/1 but does not provide any information about the maker. I have seen some information about it being made by Amcraft but I have not be able to get a 100% confirmation on that yet. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted June 8, 2010 Share #50 Posted June 8, 2010 Here is a pattern that took me a bit of time to locate. My gut tell me this is prewar again based on its construction but alas I have no way to date it... maybe someone can offer their thoughts or better yet a photo of a pilot wearing the same style. I hope you like this one as it is a very cool wing! John Here is a detail shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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