1919-1941 Interwar Period vintage pilot wings: examples and patterns

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Still missing that one!

[Salvage Sailor]

Interwar Wings in Wear - 5th Composite Group, Luke Field (Ford Island) T.H. Hawaiian Air Force

Individual Details Here - Pineapple Air Force Pilot Wings : Luke Field (Ford Island) 5th Composite Group

 

 

[donaldnol]

On 12/9/2009 at 7:36 PM, hawk3370 said:

 

John,

As requested here is the back of the Van Dusen wing. Only markings are "sterling". Measures 3" tip to tip as opposed to the later 3 1/8" wings.

that pin needs some help, been straighten pins for quite a while i use a corn dog stick and let the pin down on it with a little pressure to help it straighten

[pfrost]

I have been looking for this pattern of wing for a very long time--it seems to be a hard pattern to find.  I first saw it on Bob's fantastic site in the Interwar section.  From Cliff's wonderful collection, I have to say I fell in love with this wing at first site (http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/btw/us/presleyunknownsterling.shtml)

 

I had hoped (and rightfully so) that eventually it would show up on eBay and I could get it cheap.  As they say... Slowly slowly catchy the monkey.

 

Well, it did show up on eBay and for a pretty good price.

It was obviously made with a different forcer die, but it is still the same wing.  I love the aesthetics of its feathering, especially in the shoulder

 

My sense is that this is likely a wing from the 30's or early 40's.

[bschwartz]

Woah, congrats on those, Patrick.  They are a unique variation and I have been hunting for a set myself.  Glad you found one.  A lot of times the shoulders of the wings in photos are so dark either from age or dirt that the unique feathering doesn't show up.  But I agree with you that they are not very common and come from an era where wings weren't cranked out in the same volume that they were during the WW2 era.  A great find.  Glad you got them.  Congrats.

[pfrost]

Thanks Bob.  As always much thanks go to you (and your contributors like Cliff) for your wonderful site.  I cannot stress enough, especially to the newbie collectors, how great a resource your work has become.

 

It was a dickens to get the shoulder detail in focus!  Like you said, it was rather tarnished and dirty. There is also either a die flaw or signs of wear on the middle of the left wing.

[Bull Moose]

I have two examples of this pattern. It is also one of my favorites, that’s probably how I ended up with two.
 

One is a duplicate of yours, the second (see photos) has different style hinge and catch for the pin setup. I always wondered if they are original or replacements. They look like they have been attached forever, but there is a different patina in the area where they are attached to the wing. It looks like the surface was cleaned. Maybe as part of he assembly process. Possibly, a cleaning agent or the flux used during soldering my have changed how the silver tarnished in this area. 
 

Patrick, I second your thoughts on how valuable a resource Bob’s site is for collectors.  I visit it almost daily. I also want to thank you and all of the other members of this forum who share their knowledge. It has made this hobby more enjoyable for me. Both sites have saved me a ton of money.

[jeff41st]

Yes, those are nice. I have this pattern too. Mine shows the same "wear" area on that left side. So yea die flaw maybe? They also both have an indentation on the upper left side of the grill(?) area.

 

 I know it is often impossible to know, but any ideas as to the maker?

 

[pfrost]

cool beans.  Not a clue. 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

All of those have the same indent on the middle left of the shield. i was always focused on the shoulders but did not see that until now. 

[donaldnol]

1 hour ago, rathbonemuseum.com said:

All of those have the same indent on the middle left of the shield. i was always focused on the shoulders but did not see that until now. 

awesome

[5thwingmarty]

Since we are having a bit of a love-fest for this pattern of wing, here is my example.  It has a cammed pin that opens to a bit less than 90-degrees, and the feather details to the left of the shield are still crisply edged.  The right side of my wing looks a bit more worn than the left side, with the bottom edge of the wing being somewhat rounded down on this side.  The upper left corner of the shield is also still very sharply detailed with a raised edge and distinct corners, while the upper right corner is worn down and rounded with no raised edge.

 

I am less convinced that these pre-date WWII as they are very light wings (mine is 13.9 grams) and the shield details are more typical of WWII wings such as the raised center stripe, and the detail lines in the recessed stripes.  In any event, I agree these are some of the prettiest Pilot wings with the three rows of feathers and distinct shoulder feathers.

 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Ahh, finally. A "From Official Die" wing to add to my collection. Seemed so elusive and i would be just a bit too late for a shot at the others. But really happy to finally land this. Some interesting elements of this particular example: 1) the little "hot dog" die blemish on the left wing, inside edge; 2) the break in the lowest part of the shield edge; and 3) the sterling stamped upside down. Similar to an example owned by John F. @B-17Guy. Not the same as the ones owned by @CliffP. 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Some other interwar wings, more 1919-1920s period than later. Very similar fronts to FOD/Adams wing pattern but interesting backs.

1. A  very heavy wing with very strong reverse details.

2. Again, a very heavy and thick stamping similar to a wing @5thwingmartyhad discussed before

3. A nice clean example with heavy findings similar to Noble but has the broken edge at the bottom of the shield, similar to the FOD wing above and that Noble strikes do not have.

4. Another Noble addition

[warguy]

Very nice wings thanks for sharing. I especially like your narrative description of the “From Official Die” wing, really helps those of us learning to know what to look for on these. Congrats ion a nice acquisition. Kevin

[5thwingmarty]

Here is one I just picked up, a Blackinton pattern Balloon wing.  It appears to be silver-plated brass, has a 3-3/16" span and weighs a whopping 11.9 grams.  If it was a couple years older and had the applied US letters I would call it an Aeronaut.  As is it is probably a Balloon Observer.

 

[pfrost]

Why a balloon observer?  Very nice though

 

[5thwingmarty]

If this wing had the added gold US letters like Cliff's example on Bob's site I would have called it an Aeronaut.  It is my understanding that when the rating was changed from Aeronaut to Balloon Observer in 1921 the badge was changed removing the letters.  In 1940 the name of the rating associated with this style badge was changed again to Balloon Pilot and the new wing with the O on the balloon became the Balloon Observer badge.  My presumption is this wing dates from the 1920s to 1930s since Blackinton doesn't appear to have continued making balloon wings after they added the different balloon ratings in 1940, so its designation during the time it was probably made was Balloon Observer wing/badge. 

[pfrost]

I guess I am just slow witted this morning.  It was my understanding (perhaps I am wrong) of what you are say is that when the US was removed from the Aeronaut pilot wing, it became an observer badge?  But what did the pilot badge become?

 

It was my understanding that the observer 1/2 wing was worn by balloon observers in WWI.  And that there were some variations of the balloon observer wing in the post war period but again as half wings (with the US in the "O").  I recall (but it may be my bad memory) of a  half wing balloon pattern, with one of the wings cut off.

 

This period is always confusing because of the rarity of the wings and airmen who wore them in the interwar period.

[5thwingmarty]

I have copies of the Circulars that describe the badges for the different ratings as they changed, but they do not describe the qualifications for the ratings themselves.  I don't think they were identifying any differences between Balloon Pilots and Balloon Observers at that point.  Then they lumped the Balloon Observers in with the Airplane Observers, Aerial Bombers and Aerial Gunners to use the half wings until those went away in 1921.

 

If you really want to get confused, we can discuss the 1917 badges where they had a "Military Aeronaut" which was embroidered in white on a blue background, had the two wings, gold thread US letters and the star over the balloon.  Does anyone have one of those?

 

[Bull Moose]

J A Meyers & Co Los Angeles pilot wing sold on eBay today for $1136.

 

My, as it turns out naïve, bid of $575 did not even register. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/186362009122?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=dGpKo6gtSMe&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=-y5jSSKmRs6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

 

[cwnorma]

17 hours ago, Bull Moose said:

My, as it turns out naïve, bid of $575 did not even register. 

Nice piece.  Tough one to find.  There were at least three bidders in range.  Someone got a gem.

[5thwingmarty]

I was the first one to bid on this, and I messaged the seller to ask they not accept any low-ball offers to end early.  They replied back that after my initial bid they had been messaged by several other people offering $200 to $250 for the wing.  I bet they are happy they didn't take a $250 offer now.

[pfrost]

This J A Meyers & CO (AKA JAMCO) wing was made in Los Angeles.  I think that they were probably manufactured in the 1920's and maybe into the 30's.  But probably not later than that.  J A Meyers was founded in 1912 and was located in the jewelry district in downtown LA. It was primarily involved in making wedding rings, class rings, and fraternity items.  They also apparently made jewelry well into the 70's

 

 

I believe you can find a fair number of ads in USC and UCLA yearbooks from that era. 

 

The wings are not very common, and rarely seen--but there were at least two patterns and maybe 3 patterns. Up to the mid-20s, the USAAC had some pilot training schools in the California area before moving everything to Texas.  I have no proof, but I suspect that it was in this short period after WWI and before the move to Texas that JAMCO was probably trying to target ROTC and recent pilot graduates in California.  They seemed to have been primarily a local concern.  JAMCO was apparently well-known for its diamond wedding rings. This is one of their hallmarks.

 

 

By around 1950, Francis Meyers (the son) took over the company and ran it until the mid 1970's. Francis Meyers was involved with UCLA adult education and tragically was killed in an automobile accident in the late 1990's  (he was well into his 80's). 

 

I also think in the WWII/post-WWII time frame, J A Meyers got taken in by a con man who was out on parole. Apparently the company had hired him as a manager, and didn't know his criminal history. They sued California for not letting them know about this guy's (Joe Klien) past, but lost. (From the lawsuit "On July 1, 1974, Klein, pursuant to his own effort was hired as an assistant to the president of JAMCO. Two months later, he was appointed to the position of Executive Vice President. When hired, he was on probation following a criminal conviction for larceny and embezzlement. Francis Meyers, President of JAMCO, personally called business references in New York and Los Angeles which Klein had supplied upon employment. These companies all verified Klein's employment with them and confirmed his representations regarding his skill and experience in the business world. No references were made to Klein's history of fraud by these contacts. The record is silent on any verification that might have been made regarding his alleged financial contacts The  plaintiffs were unaware of Klein's history of fraudulent conduct. Defendants, of course, knew of Klein's prior criminal record involving similar crimes. Klein advised his probation officers Laz and Ellis that he had taken a position in sales with JAMCO, but that he had not told his new employer of his criminal record and probationary status. Laz and Ellis did not divulge their identities to JAMCO when they called the company to verify his employment, nor did they reveal Klein's probationary status. JAMCO suffered losses through Klein's embezzlement of approximately $100,000.")  Ah California.... you never change!

[jeff41st]

12 hours ago, cwnorma said:

Nice piece.  Tough one to find.  There were at least three bidders in range.  Someone got a gem.

With that much feedback, a dealer perhaps.