bobgee Posted June 16, 2009 #26 Posted June 16, 2009 The U.S. Army did NOT have an AVIATION clasp authorized for the WWI Victory Medal; just the USN & USMC. Semper Fi.....Bobgee
swabbie Posted June 17, 2009 #27 Posted June 17, 2009 Although I can’t be certain until I see a photograph of your Aviation clasp, many unauthorized clasps (as well as those authorized but not struck by the US government) were made in France. I believe that a number of these were sold via publications from the American Legion, MoC (Cooties) etc. I think they add a nice “flavor” to the WWI Victory medal clasps and can frequently be found mounted upon the medal with official Government clasp strikes. BTW, I wrote a lengthy posting on this subject (along with reproduction clasps) with photographs but unfortunately was unable to get the latter “shrunk” down in size for posting.
SammyT Posted June 22, 2010 #28 Posted June 22, 2010 This is one of my WWI Victory Medals. This one has an "Aviation" clasp on it. The only aviation clasps I've seen before were related to the Naval clasps which are outlined in a rope design. This clasp has no outer rope design. I was wondering if anyone has ever come across a clasp like this? Also, your thoughts on the following would be appreciated as well. Thanks. - What were the qualifications in order to be awarded the clasp? - Any thoughts on value of medal as a whole? Sammy T.
Allan H. Posted June 22, 2010 #31 Posted June 22, 2010 My vote is that it is a fantasy- put together. Army veterans could qualify for a single bar for England or for france if they had not been sent to the front, but could only qualify for one bar- not two as shown. Secondly, the "Aviation" bar is an army style, but the bar was purely a navy award, so it SHOULD be rectangular in appearance with a rope border. Finally, the brooch has already been mentioned. The split brooch would have been an indication of a Bailey, Banks and Biddle strike, but the ends should be rounded, not square as seen in your medal. It is POSSIBLE that these pieces are Studleys, but my gut is telling me that it is a 1970's fantasy piece. Allan
USMCR79 Posted June 22, 2010 #32 Posted June 22, 2010 The bottom clasp (type) were made in France in the 1920's (I'm not sure why) but they were carried by Army Navy Stores in the 1930's and 40's and by George Studley. I have always thought the made in France clasps were interesting as a variation. The top clasp is described by Alex Laslo as "sew on" battle clasp which is an official and rare variation. The middle clasp seems like a "good" official issue clasp. Bill
SammyT Posted June 23, 2010 #33 Posted June 23, 2010 Thanks guys for your help on this on. So in summary, is it fair to say that: - the medal and the ribbon are original WWI victory medal. - The brooche is likely a makeshift onethat was not standard issue. - The Aviation clasp is a fantasy piece. - The "sew on" "England" clasp is original WWI and a somewhat rare clasp, - the "France" clasp is also an original WWI. - and only one, either the England or the France tab would have been authorized for wear on this medal. Two final questions for your opinions, if I may. - taking the entire medal and it's circumstances into account, how does this affect its value - What would you suggest be done with this medal? (cut off the brooche and remove the fantasy clasp and one of the original clasps / leave the medal as is / get rid of the medal. Your opinions are definitely appreciated. Thanks. SAmmyT.
SammyT Posted June 23, 2010 #34 Posted June 23, 2010 Hello again. Here is another of my WWI victory medals. I'm hoping this one is a good one. Your opinions? Thanks. Sammy T.
ww1collector Posted June 23, 2010 #38 Posted June 23, 2010 Looks OK to me-82nd div is one possibility. dave
SammyT Posted June 23, 2010 #39 Posted June 23, 2010 just another thought. Someone has mentioned that they thought the clasps did not appear to be army issue, but rather private purchase. Any thoughts?
FrankEaton01 Posted June 24, 2010 #40 Posted June 24, 2010 The medal and clasps look 100% original Army issue to me.
USMCR79 Posted June 24, 2010 #41 Posted June 24, 2010 Thanks guys for your help on this on. So in summary, is it fair to say that: - the medal and the ribbon are original WWI victory medal. - The brooche is likely a makeshift onethat was not standard issue. - The Aviation clasp is a fantasy piece. - The "sew on" "England" clasp is original WWI and a somewhat rare clasp, - the "France" clasp is also an original WWI. - and only one, either the England or the France tab would have been authorized for wear on this medal. Two final questions for your opinions, if I may. - taking the entire medal and it's circumstances into account, how does this affect its value - What would you suggest be done with this medal? (cut off the brooche and remove the fantasy clasp and one of the original clasps / leave the medal as is / get rid of the medal. Your opinions are definitely appreciated. Thanks. SAmmyT. Keep it or sell it, but leave it intact, if you are a newer collector you may not want to have this variation, but as you advance in your collecting you will appreciate it from a historical perspective (the "man" who wore this and his service), and the rarity of the sew on clasp along with the England clasp. Bill
Johnnymac Posted June 30, 2010 #42 Posted June 30, 2010 To Sammy and to All, From the photo you posted, I can see they are Official issue clasp. As far as them being the 82nd Division it is nice to say, but the 82th Div. was only one of the many who were awarded this combination of clasp. Example: 5th, 35th, 78th, 82nd, 89th, 90th Divisions, alone with the 43rd , 44th , 51st , 53rd , 57th , 59th , 60th & 65th Coastal Arty. Corps and the 1st & 2nd Antiaircraft, Battalion, 1st Antiaircraft Machine Gun, Battalion, 15th Engineers (Stand Gauge Railroad), 21st Engineers (Light Railroad,) 28th Engineers (Quarry), 37th Engineers (Electrical & Mechanical), 5th Corps Observation Group, Air Service, 2nd Army, 99th Squadron, and the 1st Day Bombardment Group Air Service, plus the 1st Army 11th, 20th & 96th. And the list goes on and on for these three clasps. Regards, Johnnymac (JM)
cwnorma Posted June 30, 2010 #43 Posted June 30, 2010 Obligatory Victory Medal bar clarification: Victory Medal bars were issued individually to soldiers; not by unit. This combination represents the actions in which a soldier participated--not necessarily the unit to which he was assigned. The unit would have been awarded streamers, in the color of the WW1 Victory Medal Ribbon, embroidered with the names of the actions. These streamers would be affixed to the Unit's colors. If a soldier was with the unit when it entered the line, and remained with the unit until the armistice, he would have earned bars with the same designations as the unit streamers. If he was a replacement, or wounded, he might not have all the "bars" that correspond to the unit streamers.
Johnnymac Posted June 30, 2010 #44 Posted June 30, 2010 Thanks for the clarification. I was going to mention this but you have it well covered. Like British medal bars, these bars are to the individual and not to the unit. So, if you want to verify the bars of an individual's WWI Victory medal, you could check to see what his division was entitled to see if there are any that were not authorized to that unit, but not vice versa..... -Ski Thanks for the help, I did forget to use the word “Unit” award. And of course if you were a replacement, wounded, or a soldier off the line for some other reason, you would not have been entitled one of your unit’s battle clasps. But lets examine just one division, “The Big Red One”. As you can see it was made up of combatant and noncombatant troops. To me it’s a given that each and every soldier would not have had the five battle clasps awarded to them. Combatant is really the key to who got what. But so many collectors come up with a tunic, with a patch and do not look any farther than the patch. The Victory medal with the Montdidier-Noyon, Aisne-Marne, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne and the Defensive Sector clasps on it belonged to a person from the 1st Division, but it can not be said that Victory Medal with St. Mihiel, Meuse Argonne and Defensive Sector was strictly from a person from 82nd Division without proper documentation. 1st Division 1st Infantry Brigade: 16th Infantry Regiment 18th Infantry Regiment 2nd Machine Gun Battalion 2nd Infantry Brigade: 26th Infantry Regiment 28th Infantry Regiment 3rd Machine Gun Battalion 1st Field Artillery Brigade: 5th Field Artillery Regiment 6th Field Artillery Regiment 7th Field Artillery Regiment 1st Trench Mortar Battery And its Divisional Troops: 1st Machine Gun Battalion, 1st Engineers Regiment, 2nd Field Signal Battalion, 1st Train Headquarters and MP, 1st Ammunition Train, 1st Supply Train, 2nd Engineer Train, 1st Sanitary Train, (Ambulance Companies & Field Hospitals 2, 3, 12, 13) 1St Mobile Ordnance Repair Shops (M.O.R.S.), 301st, 378th & 695th Service Parks, 1st Motor Vehicle Shops, 309th Commissary, 319th Clothing, 22nd Salvage, 314th Laundry, 18th & 22nd Bath, 7th Bakery. Thanks to all, Johnnymac (JM)
all-bull Posted March 26, 2011 #45 Posted March 26, 2011 Hello, I might be dumb, but can someone please tell me more about this miniature medal? I have never seen a WWI Victory miniature before, although that does not mean anything. Are they hard to come by? And what do the bars represent? Are these medals still being made? Any help would be great. THANKS!!!
Javelin4life Posted March 26, 2011 #47 Posted March 26, 2011 The bars represent the battles that the soldier would have participated in. The Ypres-Lys bar is not usually easy to come by
Allan H. Posted March 26, 2011 #48 Posted March 26, 2011 Hello, I might be dumb, but can someone please tell me more about this miniature medal? I have never seen a WWI Victory miniature before, although that does not mean anything. Are they hard to come by? And what do the bars represent? Are these medals still being made? Any help would be great. THANKS!!! Never a dumb question on this forum! I like what tI am seeing as it is a nice, vintage miniature meda that I would estimate as having been produced in the 1920's or 30's. These minis were not issued, but were privately purchased and authorized for wear on the dress blue uniform. The rather large bars on the ribbon make me think that this is a Studley. As another member commented, the two bars are rather unusual and scarce as full sized bars. Mr. Studley made many "unofficial" bars as well as the officially sanctioned bars. As far as I know, mini WWI medals can still be purchased, though I can only imagine that they would be sold as a collector's piece. Several years ago, one of the big insignia manufacturers sold large medal boards with miniature medals going back as far as the US Civil War. All of those medals were mewly made when the boards were produced. Allan
Tim B Posted October 13, 2011 #49 Posted October 13, 2011 Yes, everyone in uniform (active duty and some reservists (not in a training role) mostly) were entitled to the Victory Medal as it was considered a service medal of the period. Depending on where you were serving in the world, a clasp was authorized. If you were stateside, you rated a medal without any attachments/clasps. Tim
Johnnymac Posted October 13, 2011 #50 Posted October 13, 2011 Were soldiers who only served stateside during WWI issued the Victory Medal? The answer is larger than just stateside service. All active military personnel severing from April 6, 1917 to Nov. 11, 1918, and who were not entitled to a Victory medal without a Battle, Duty or Service clasp. Plus "some civilian personnel" that took part in the war zones. Two example Volunteer women operators from Bell telephone" who served in France with the US Army. Also civilian railroad workers in Russia with the U.S. Army. There are many more examples.
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