Senior Service pilot and Wing

[joshypogi]

Bought these today, any clue to its authenticy?

[bschwartz]

The A. E. Co pilot looks good, some better pictures would help me be sure, but the Senior Service pilot is a Meyer repro.

 

Here's a link to a real one

[Paul S]

Joshy, I really like your enthusiasm but your ready, fire, aim approach is giving me heartburn--on your behalf. Take a look at the last couple of entries on "fakes, fantasy, and reproductions" thread at the top of this page where I posted your Sr. Service Pilot wing for comment and at Patrick's learned response that followed.

 

Meyer made a good looking, substantial wing and then they used their original dies to make a lot of re-strikes over the years following the war. I'm not sure how they were sold, but suspect it was viewed by them to be just another business opportunity to supply an existing demand. By closely replicating their original products, they created both a quagmire for latter day collectors and an opportunity for opportunists to create some fanciful pieces such as your Sr. Service Pilot.

 

This wing is the reverse of a Meyer service pilot, one a re-strike, the other a biographical piece. I don't bother to show the obverse because they are indistinguishable, one from the other...at least to my eye. As a reproduction, your wing should bring no more than $50; as an original I suspect it might bring 5 or 6 times that amount from a knowledgeable collector.

[joshypogi]

Joshy, I really like your enthusiasm but your ready, fire, aim approach is giving me heartburn--on your behalf. Take a look at the last couple of entries on "fakes, fantasy, and reproductions" thread at the top of this page where I posted your Sr. Service Pilot wing for comment and at Patrick's learned response that followed.

 

Meyer made a good looking, substantial wing and then they used their original dies to make a lot of re-strikes over the years following the war. I'm not sure how they were sold, but suspect it was viewed by them to be just another business opportunity to supply an existing demand. By closely replicating their original products, they created both a quagmire for latter day collectors and an opportunity for opportunists to create some fanciful pieces such as your Sr. Service Pilot.

 

This wing is the reverse of a Meyer service pilot, one a re-strike, the other a biographical piece. I don't bother to show the obverse because they are indistinguishable, one from the other...at least to my eye. As a reproduction, your wing should bring no more than $50; as an original I suspect it might bring 5 or 6 times that amount from a knowledgeable collector.

 

Thanks for the info, I learn a lot from the experts like you are. Aloha from Hawaii.

[joshypogi]

Thanks for the info, I learn a lot from the experts like you are. Aloha from Hawaii.

 

 

Any comments on the A.E. Co wing?

[bschwartz]

I still think your A.E. Co looks good. The thing that threw me in your photos is the light colored area on the right hand side of the back of the wing as you look at it. After looking at it a bit closer I think it's the residue from a sticker or something that was attached to the back. Otherwise I think that one is OK but better pictures would help.

 

One other note regarding the Meyer Senior Service Pilot wings. The star on their period wings is on little stilts and not attached directly by the two bottom points of the stars. The fakers usually get this wrong although I have seen some fakes now with the stilts on the stars. Paul did a great job of pointing out the things to look for to identify a Meyer fake. Most of us have fallen for them at one time or another when we started collecting. Here's a photo of a period Meyer with the star on stilts so you can see what I'm talking about.

 

[pfrost]

Hello Joshi,

 

I think what a number of the "boys" are saying is that NS Meyer's (NSM) wings are something that ought to be avoided if you are a novice.

 

Here are some things to look for in NSM wings.

 

First, recognize the pattern. NSM wings used at least two genearl type of patterns, the earlier "Adams" pattern and what I believe to be a later (WWII and post WWII) "pelican beak pattern". The earlier patterns tend to show up on pilot, observer, balloon, TO, and airship restrikes. This is the "early" NSM pilot wing. Typically, this pattern has an incised hallmark on the right wing (as you look at the back). The pin should ALWAYS open only to about 80-90 degrees. IMHO, most of the restrikes in this pattern are of the rarer balloon, TO and airship wings. I may be wrong but I do not see that many restrikes in the pilot or observer wings in this pattern.

 

Also, I do not believe that NSM made the later WWII vintage wings (ie gunner, bombardier, navigator, "alphabet wings", etc) in this pattern. On rare occasions, I do see the senior and command pilot wings in this pattern.

 

It should be noted that a careful study of NSM wings will show that the pelican beak pattern used by NSM shows some subtle variations within the pattern. I have my own theory that this can allow for a further dating of NSM wings to a general pre-war Adams pattern, a WWII-KW vintage 1st variation pelican beak pattern and a KW-post KW 2nd pattern pelican beak variation. But that is perhaps a topic for later....

[pfrost]

Here is the "pelican beak" pattern that I suspect dates to around WWII. This is called the pelican beak because the upper shoulder of the wing tends to make a shape that makes a pelican beak. You tend to see NSM wings in this pattern that include the gunner, bombardier, navigator, observer, senior observer, the alphabet wings, the senior service pilot wing, and the senior and command pilot wings. I believe that ALL of these wings were restruck off the original dies and that outside of the balloon, TO, and airship fakes, are likely the most common restrikes around. As mentioned in an earlier post on another thread, these fakes have undergone a number of versions and alterations. The most COMMON factor is the pattern (ie pelican beak).

 

Here is an example of a good vintage pelican beak pilot wing.

 

Telling the good from the bad is an art form. Everyone has there own system. As a novice, the best advice I can tell you is to 1) stay away from this pattern until you have sharper skills or 2) be prepared to waste money on fakes. It is a hard fact, but these NSM wings are a mine field to unwary newbie collectors.

[pfrost]

The next thing, as Bob correctly points out, the vintage "senior" class wings (ie senior pilot, observer, balloon, and service pilot) tend to have small stars on stilts. This is not a 100% fact, but is almost so. Here are is vintage senior pilot wing with the little stars on stilts and an equally vintage senior pilot wing with the star directly attached. I believe that the wings with the star attached may actually be post KW vintage. That is another topic for later, but both of these wings were gifts from the pilot. Still, compare the stars and you may see some interesting differences from the fake senior service pilot wing.

 

Other things to note, I have ONLY seen good senior service pilot wings with the little stars on stilts.

[pfrost]

Here is another WWII vintage senior observer wing. Again, note the small star on the stilts.

[pfrost]

Finally, may as well round out this discussion with the NSM gunner wing.

 

What I would recommend is handling lots of NSM wings, especially those marked 9M or 22M. These later wings are rather common and they are not faked (best I can tell). Once you get a feel for these wings, you can start studying the WWII vintage examples. But, you have to understand that no matter what, people will still have serious doubts about any NSM wing. So, you have to be the final judge.

 

One thing that should be obvious is that all these wings tend to have completely different hallmark patterns on the back. I find that in my experience, the worst thing to do is try to generalize the vintage of the wing based on its hallmarks. There are other characteristics (such as pin and finish) of the wing that are better mechanisms to determine a NSM wing's legitimacy.

 

Also, no matter what, an NSM wing is a relatively poor investment. They simply do not seem to hold their value that well. Ironically, it seems that once you reach the experience level of collecting that would allow you to make a pretty good determination of the wings vintage, likely your interests have matured and moved on to other areas of collecting...... Basically, as Paul said about heartburn, I agree. Many of the more experienced collectors can share your pain as well look at our own collecting arc, with a "box of shame" full of questionable NSM wings, some cast CBI/POW wings and those early trail and error purchases.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Patrick Frost

[joshypogi]

Joshy, I really like your enthusiasm but your ready, fire, aim approach is giving me heartburn--on your behalf. Take a look at the last couple of entries on "fakes, fantasy, and reproductions" thread at the top of this page where I posted your Sr. Service Pilot wing for comment and at Patrick's learned response that followed.

 

Meyer made a good looking, substantial wing and then they used their original dies to make a lot of re-strikes over the years following the war. I'm not sure how they were sold, but suspect it was viewed by them to be just another business opportunity to supply an existing demand. By closely replicating their original products, they created both a quagmire for latter day collectors and an opportunity for opportunists to create some fanciful pieces such as your Sr. Service Pilot.

 

This wing is the reverse of a Meyer service pilot, one a re-strike, the other a biographical piece. I don't bother to show the obverse because they are indistinguishable, one from the other...at least to my eye. As a reproduction, your wing should bring no more than $50; as an original I suspect it might bring 5 or 6 times that amount from a knowledgeable collector.

 

 

The exact wing from the bottom is currently for sale in Ebay, Are you the Seller?

[Paul S]

Yep, that's the same wing and I am the seller. I picked up the re-strike some time ago for the purpose of making the comparison picture above and resold it some time ago. I picked up another SP wing the other day and this Meyer will loose its spot as a result.

[John Cooper]

Paul, Patrick, & Bob thanks for adding this very helpful information for Joshy :twothumbup:

 

John

[Paul S]

Paul, Patrick, & Bob thanks for adding this very helpful information for Joshy :twothumbup:

 

One further thought on the Meyer Service Pilot is to note that the "sterling" mark in this case is legitimate if it is incised, where with many other Meyer wings, you want to look for "raised sterling" marks and suspect the incised versions. I think this is true also for the Liaison and Glider pilot wings by Meyer. Of course, this just adds to the art of judging the good from the bad that Patrick mentions.