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Tiger Stripes

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Well i have been ( i moved to collecting Vietnamese items recently) collecting German stuff for over 20 years so i m not really into buying my new collecting via E Bay( at least not at the start ), because i m totaly new to this, so for me it will be a learning the basics first, i have problems on e bay to see the difference between the fake stuff and the real stuff just based on the pictures.

 

i have seen real cloth in Vietnam been retailored into marines uniform, this even with the quater master stamps, i could only see it was a fake by the slopy sweeing. but the material was real. it looked all real, from what i have been reeding from Bob Chat is that there were huge quantities of clothing material available after the war.

 

and the repros that are being sold on ebay USA do look pretty well, i m not only speaking about VNMC tigers but also VN Rangers ect...

 

So how can a newbee like me just tell by the pictures if the jacket is good or not, so the process of learning will be very slow, if you know what i mean!!!

 

I know the military market in Saigon very well, i did only find one good item there, (but it was not uniform related),i was not really into collecting Vnese stuff at that time anyway, but i m sure if you have good connection that there must still be something arround that place.

 

I wonder if the actual Govt in Vietnam still posses wearhouses full of uniforms or if everything was destroyed after the war???

 

I know that people in germany were searching for sites of old German uniform factories to try to find some depots, and i can tell you that people got very very very lucky with that search.

 

well maybee i going to check German e bay, lets see!!!!!

 

maybe we can open a new thread with copies camo uniforms from the Vn war period ;)

 

cheers

 

Alex

 

Totally true, and of course Ebay USA thanks for the weakness of the US Dollars :rolleyes: (sorry), sometime we had some US militaria from our thrift stores during the 90s (we still have pleinty of fully badged BDU or DCU). But I think people from Germany should have more lucks since there are a lot of US Bases there, right now and during the Vietnam war.

 

I'd rather try my chance in Ebay than with US dealer, sometime we make good deals. Since I only collect camo and Tiger Stripe, I do not have problems with put together patches like we have with jungle jackets.

 

Cheers


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A set of Tiger Stripe in Tadpole Pattern made like a USMC M58 fatigues shirt, the pants has the same cut of some Lucky Brands or Troopers pants designed for Paratroopers (the same cut as the OG107 1st model with cargo pockets).

 

I think these fatigues were made in Japan during the war for some USMC/VNMC Advisors.

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The pants

 

These cuts were not menstionned in the Johnson book (probabaly because they were not widely sold during the war)

 

Cheers

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2 jackets retailored to look like a Jungle fatigues (like the VNMC jacket of Andreil), unfortunately they were heavily faded (so they saw combats :rolleyes: ). The left one was made from a 4 pockets VNMC Thai Large Tiger Stripe in Poplin (so was made in the very end of the war). The right one was made from a Advisor Dense pattern in US Cut Shirt.

 

Cheers

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well i have finally received the books of books "Tiger Patterns" , by Johnson.

my following question how did the collectors defined their TS shirts before the book came out, because from what i undrestand it was less complicated then then now.

i mean the book is a great help no doubt about that, but how many categrories did you had before, ill hope you guys understand my question think.gif

 

Cheers

 

Alex

 

2 jackets retailored to look like a Jungle fatigues (like the VNMC jacket of Andreil), unfortunately they were heavily faded (so they saw combats :rolleyes: ). The left one was made from a 4 pockets VNMC Thai Large Tiger Stripe in Poplin (so was made in the very end of the war). The right one was made from a Advisor Dense pattern in US Cut Shirt.

 

Cheers


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Before, like some US collectors daid, we just said if this is Silver or Gold pattern, we ask about the material, light wieght, heavy weight ...?

 

well i have finally received the books of books "Tiger Patterns" , by Johnson.

my following question how did the collectors defined their TS shirts before the book came out, because from what i undrestand it was less complicated then then now.

i mean the book is a great help no doubt about that, but how many categrories did you had before, ill hope you guys understand my question think.gif

 

Cheers

 

Alex

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so Copran maybe i can ask you, what do you prefer the new or old way??

 

Alex

 

Before, like some US collectors daid, we just said if this is Silver or Gold pattern, we ask about the material, light wieght, heavy weight ...?

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We still go by gold, silver, lightweight......Johnson's silly names are just that.....silly.

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Well it s becoming a science of it s own, he made his PHD on tiger stripe that for sure, i ll think its really like a science book, for me its confusing at the begining because i do not really posses any TS shirt at the moment to study the diverese types ad being able to handle them in my own hands.

 

What i do not really understand is that for TS items if they are used they are worth much less then mint, i mean i can undersatnd that, but coming from the german uniforms collection, i do and many other collectors prefer Tunics that have seen combat they are of course a little less worth then a mint tunic but not undiserable, and are sold easily on the market.

 

I have the feeling that the history behind the TS shirts are a little bit lost here, and that too much emphasis is made on color ,type and top notch condition, all buttons present ect....... Maybe the book comes over a little bit to scientific. It still a great reference but it s realy like a PHD work.

I think he wanted to make the most detailed book and i m sure it is, he did put his liftime expertise on it, i respect that.

Don t get me wrong here i might be totaly wrong but it s a little bit the impression i have after reading a little bit in the book, or i am alone with this impression ?

 

I dont know maybe it s because the shirts are not that old and that you still can pick nice once, and so the used shirt are not that much prefered?

i personaly dont mind a shirt with a field repair for a reasonalble price, but it seem that it s almost worthless to buy one because you will never be able to sell it again? so basicaly i have to follow the guidlines as not be able to loose money when one day i will sell my collection, so do i have to follow the criteria???? ( i prefer to collect the history behind the shirts)

Or do we have to wait another 30 years before the really been there shirts are worth something.

 

 

maybe you guys can tell me what you think and whats important for you in your TS collection.

 

Cheers

 

Alex

 

We still go by gold, silver, lightweight......Johnson's silly names are just that.....silly.

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Bonsoir,

Alex, I think that depends of your collection focus. Some of my fellows are very interested in the different type of TS and they have an incredible collection with a large number of models and patterns, official issued or private purchased. As for myself, I focus on units and I'm keen on named and or badged sets. I can say however that I'm very poor in tigers, only three of four sets. I'm still interested to find a typical cut or a pattern used in a period or an unit presenting an interest to me.

Cheers

Valery


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Bonsoir Valery,

 

i fully understand that one would like to collect different types, but from jophnson books the evaluation of a shirt is made by the condition, and that worn items are less deisarble , well this is what i undersand when reading the book.

Is it really taht imporatnt if a shirt i really worn ?

 

So i m like you, i would prefer named set, but i guess it s very difficult to get, as Johnson says in his book that most are without any insignias or name tapes.

 

Alex

 

Bonsoir,

Alex, I think that depends of your collection focus. Some of my fellows are very interested in the different type of TS and they have an incredible collection with a large number of models and patterns, official issued or private purchased. As for myself, I focus on units and I'm keen on named and or badged sets. I can say however that I'm very poor in tigers, only three of four sets. I'm still interested to find a typical cut or a pattern used in a period or an unit presenting an interest to me.

Cheers

Valery


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Alex-Like you were warned early, once you got the book you would probably be more confused. Richard did do a great job in showing some of the variants, but if anyone believes that what he shows are the only patterns, that will be highly disappointed. Also, saying that he is very correct with the statement about most tiger stripes not having insignia. It would be a safe bet to say we purchase one piece with inisgnia to every twenty or thirty pieces without insignia. Your question about the the used versus non used, we have many collectors who only want excelent condition pieces, but also we have some that have the Been There Done That look. It is totally up to the collector. Do not make up your mind on what to collect becasue a book says it should be a certain way. Collect what you like and enjoy them.


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"A militaria show is a social event for anti-socials" - A.T. 2008


ASMIC Executive President

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i fully understand that one would like to collect different types, but from jophnson books the evaluation of a shirt is made by the condition, and that worn items are less deisarble , well this is what i undersand when reading the book.

Is it really taht imporatnt if a shirt i really worn ?Alex

 

 

Hi Alex,

 

there are two things that i disagree with (well...three if you include the ludicrous, convoluted names given to the various cuts of garments) in his book, and i say this as a collector who came to Vietnam era collecting some time after it was published.

 

Firstly, when it comes to condition one of the (many) factors in tigerstripe collecting is how the colours on a worn shirt have faded into new hues and tones, quite distinct from their original colours.

Warm golds,purples and sea greens are quite stunning to see on a garment, and is a process that is quite unique to some tigerstripe items.

A perfect example of this can be found on Jason Hardy's site at the moment. Have a look at U-351 in his "uniforms" section.

This shirt is a great example of how a worn item gains character.

 

If we are talking major rips, tears,excessive repairs etc, then as with all collectible items that naturally lessons the interest and value.

 

I also disagree with his odd assertion that the size of a garment should be a determining factor in purchasing an item. I will happily concede that larger items tend to be more popular, but even Asian small will fit on most mannequins/tailors dummies (although trousers can be difficult to squeeze onto a dummy in the smaller Asian sizes). The notion that someone could be running around a field or working in the yard wearing one of the centrepieces of my collection fills me with horror to be honest....

 

Choose good,solid examples of worn or unissued tiger and they will generally sell themselves.

 

Don't worry about that!

 

 

Patrick.


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It would be a safe bet to say we purchase one piece with inisgnia to every twenty or thirty pieces without insignia. Your question about the the used versus non used, we have many collectors who only want excelent condition pieces, but also we have some that have the Been There Done That look. It is totally up to the collector. Do not make up your mind on what to collect becasue a book says it should be a certain way. Collect what you like and enjoy them.

 

I fully agree with you. thumbsup.gif

Alex,

It's true to find a real named or badged jacket is very hard to find. You can see in gun swhows or on eBay, incredible put together jackets, fully badged with CIB, pocket patches scroll etc... but they are put together. They are for me valorless! As I wrote you, I collect VN for more than 15 years and I have three or four tiger sets. Two have patches ( US Marine advisor and one LLDB but the gold heavyweight shirt received only one SSI, the 81st) and two are named (without insignias) one to a Water brown navy sailor and the other comes from SF NCO grouping.

You seem to be interested by the war in Central Highlands, why not identify through documents and photos a model worn by CIDG's and or SF in this area, and start your Graal quest!

Enjoy

Valery


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many thanks for your advice, its going to be the Graal quest, maybe the only think that will be close to an original TS will be the book TS patterns :lol:

 

my quest would be to long, i think i will have a couple of shirts not more some ARVN and one or two advisers, i dont want all patterns (i might say it now but once hooked who knows???) and if the dollar continues to fall, why not !!!!

 

i m not really sure how many genuine uniforms will show up in the next years. and how to differentiate newly applied patches to old ones, well i guess with my germasn uniform knowledge it might help me out, but not fully.

 

How can you see that TS shirt has new added patches, it must be even wors to make the difference then with Wehrmacht uniforms.

 

So i understand about the Quest for the Graal.

 

It s going to be a long long long time.

 

but maybe i start with the basic one or two sets without any patches, just to get appetite to start with w00t.gif

 

and invest more money into books

 

Alex

 

I fully agree with you. thumbsup.gif

Alex,

It's true to find a real named or badged jacket is very hard to find. You can see in gun swhows or on eBay, incredible put together jackets, fully badged with CIB, pocket patches scroll etc... but they are put together. They are for me valorless! As I wrote you, I collect VN for more than 15 years and I have three or four tiger sets. Two have patches ( US Marine advisor and one LLDB but the gold heavyweight shirt received only one SSI, the 81st) and two are named (without insignias) one to a Water brown navy sailor and the other comes from SF NCO grouping.

You seem to be interested by the war in Central Highlands, why not identify through documents and photos a model worn by CIDG's and or SF in this area, and start your Graal quest!

Enjoy

Valery


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Hy Patrick

 

yes maybe you are right, maybe it s because i do not posses a shirt yet and cant make the difference, but when it comes to colors and so one is this one major point of collecting TS shirts ???, i agree with that there are some very nice shades of different aging, i would of course like to posses some of those but i think it not a major issue for me to collect TS ( at the moment, i m open enough to change my mind ; who knows).

 

cheers

 

Alex


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My 2 cents worth of opinion....

 

Source books on Vietnam material have been painfully slow in coming. Richard Johnson's book on Tiger Patterns was one of the first efforts to deal with Vietnam era uniforms in depth. Although the Schiffer version is dated 1999, Richard actually self published a version of this long before that. Due to the high cost of color printing, his first work actually had color photos pasted to the pages.

 

There is an old saying, "The first one through the door gets shot...."

 

Richard's book has been criticized as being too technical for his minute descriptions of buttons, stitching, patterns, issue marks etc. It is in fact more of a technical manual than a history of the uniforms.

 

As for the names of the patterns, many of the correct names or origins were never fully documented. A few can be tied to specific Military Assistance contracts but using this for a naming system would be incomplete. While many have complained about lengthy names as "John Wayne Tadpole Dense" no one has come up with anything better. In fact many people end up quoting and using the same names.

 

As far as market values go, uniforms in US sizes are always going to bring a better price. That is just a fact of the market and a reflection of the prices people are willing to pay. Perhaps collectors pay the extra money because they feel if it is a US size, the more likely that it was worn by a US soldier.

 

One nice thing about this is if you do not care about size, then you can save some money by buying the smaller Asian size items while other collectors are competing for the larger US sizes. And you will probably find a wider variation of patterns in these sizes as well.

 

As for patched vs non-patched, this goes to a very basic truth about Vietnam era uniforms. Uniforms worn in the field tended to have very little insignia. If a collector wants something worn in combat, he should be looking for the uniforms that have little or no insignia. Vietnam era uniforms worn in the field tended to get ripped, torn and trashed. Its been my experience that few were extensively repaired by US troops... they were simply discarded and new ones obtained. The pretty uniforms with all the patches and qualification badges were worn in camp, training areas, or other rear areas. The proof is in the photos taken at the time.

 

The comment was made earlier to collect what you enjoy collecting. If you want one or two Tiger Stripe sets to spice up your collection that is OK. If you want to find examples of every variation made, that is fine as well.

 

Will there be other reference books on Tiger Stripe uniforms? I am sure there will be eventually. I'd like to see Richard take his extensive knowledge and add in more history of what units wore them and when. I am sure that is a good project for somebody.


Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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Hi Gwb123

 

well you made a good point, collect what you like to collect, i fully agree with you, and the next good point you made is that it would be great if a book came out of pictures of Vnese troopers and US troops wearing tiger stripes and what units.

 

I really respect the work that he has done, no doubt about that, its the only book so far and i m glad to have it, i really wish another edition with more in country fotos, i have seen some very nice color period fotos here on this thread, and i think a mixture of Original fotos and example uniforms with unit backgroung would be great.

 

Regarding the patches on uniform, i ll guess you need a really good trustworthy source where you get your uniforms, as Valery said he only posses a few named sets, and this after 15 years of collecting.

 

Living over the other side of the big pond does not make it easier to collect US Vietnam war stuff.

 

i actually never bought much from the internet, the German collection i had was mostly bought here localy with me being able to touch and feel the stuff before making the purchase.

so we in Europe have a disadvantage reagrding buying items.

 

maybe the old french collectors here have great network back in the US :lol: so to be able to get really good stuff.

 

 

But let me say this i m happy to satrt colecting something new, new challenges :lol:

 

Cheers

 

Alex

 

 

 

My 2 cents worth of opinion....

 

Source books on Vietnam material have been painfully slow in coming. Richard Johnson's book on Tiger Patterns was one of the first efforts to deal with Vietnam era uniforms in depth. Although the Schiffer version is dated 1999, Richard actually self published a version of this long before that. Due to the high cost of color printing, his first work actually had color photos pasted to the pages.

 

There is an old saying, "The first one through the door gets shot...."

 

Richard's book has been criticized as being too technical for his minute descriptions of buttons, stitching, patterns, issue marks etc. It is in fact more of a technical manual than a history of the uniforms.

 

As for the names of the patterns, many of the correct names or origins were never fully documented. A few can be tied to specific Military Assistance contracts but using this for a naming system would be incomplete. While many have complained about lengthy names as "John Wayne Tadpole Dense" no one has come up with anything better. In fact many people end up quoting and using the same names.

 

As far as market values go, uniforms in US sizes are always going to bring a better price. That is just a fact of the market and a reflection of the prices people are willing to pay. Perhaps collectors pay the extra money because they feel if it is a US size, the more likely that it was worn by a US soldier.

 

One nice thing about this is if you do not care about size, then you can save some money by buying the smaller Asian size items while other collectors are competing for the larger US sizes. And you will probably find a wider variation of patterns in these sizes as well.

 

As for patched vs non-patched, this goes to a very basic truth about Vietnam era uniforms. Uniforms worn in the field tended to have very little insignia. If a collector wants something worn in combat, he should be looking for the uniforms that have little or no insignia. Vietnam era uniforms worn in the field tended to get ripped, torn and trashed. Its been my experience that few were extensively repaired by US troops... they were simply discarded and new ones obtained. The pretty uniforms with all the patches and qualification badges were worn in camp, training areas, or other rear areas. The proof is in the photos taken at the time.

 

The comment was made earlier to collect what you enjoy collecting. If you want one or two Tiger Stripe sets to spice up your collection that is OK. If you want to find examples of every variation made, that is fine as well.

 

Will there be other reference books on Tiger Stripe uniforms? I am sure there will be eventually. I'd like to see Richard take his extensive knowledge and add in more history of what units wore them and when. I am sure that is a good project for somebody.


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Hi all,

I totally agree with Gil, RdJ writes the good book, almost academic book. I never met any confusion with his description, it s because I have hadsome TS when I got the book, it was much easier to compare what he said in the book with the real clothes.

 

However, you should not take this books as a reference, because there are still a lot of Tiger pattern or Cut that were not present in the book. You collect what make you happy; you must not focus to what he said. For myself, I would rather prefer the John Wayne Sparse pattern then the Gold pattern. Since I collect ARVN and south Vietnamese items, I would rather take the Asian cut or small size, I saved a lot of money that way . I prefer also retailored clothes or tailor made, it make them unique and provide more personality (and since Vietnamese are good tailor, the clothes are more beutiful than the issued ones). I don't buy items in thinking to sell them later to make profit, so no matter how large or old thay are.

 

Some TS pattern turn very awfull when faded, so some people prefer having mint ones

 

About fully badged TS, It s almost impossible to have, since 5 years of collecting intensly TS, I only had 4 sets, 2 from the LRRP guys (but probably made to wear on the rear base), 1 ARVN marines and one from the Advisor.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

My 2 cents worth of opinion....

 

Source books on Vietnam material have been painfully slow in coming. Richard Johnson's book on Tiger Patterns was one of the first efforts to deal with Vietnam era uniforms in depth. Although the Schiffer version is dated 1999, Richard actually self published a version of this long before that. Due to the high cost of color printing, his first work actually had color photos pasted to the pages.

 

There is an old saying, "The first one through the door gets shot...."

 

Richard's book has been criticized as being too technical for his minute descriptions of buttons, stitching, patterns, issue marks etc. It is in fact more of a technical manual than a history of the uniforms.

 

As for the names of the patterns, many of the correct names or origins were never fully documented. A few can be tied to specific Military Assistance contracts but using this for a naming system would be incomplete. While many have complained about lengthy names as "John Wayne Tadpole Dense" no one has come up with anything better. In fact many people end up quoting and using the same names.

 

As far as market values go, uniforms in US sizes are always going to bring a better price. That is just a fact of the market and a reflection of the prices people are willing to pay. Perhaps collectors pay the extra money because they feel if it is a US size, the more likely that it was worn by a US soldier.

 

One nice thing about this is if you do not care about size, then you can save some money by buying the smaller Asian size items while other collectors are competing for the larger US sizes. And you will probably find a wider variation of patterns in these sizes as well.

 

As for patched vs non-patched, this goes to a very basic truth about Vietnam era uniforms. Uniforms worn in the field tended to have very little insignia. If a collector wants something worn in combat, he should be looking for the uniforms that have little or no insignia. Vietnam era uniforms worn in the field tended to get ripped, torn and trashed. Its been my experience that few were extensively repaired by US troops... they were simply discarded and new ones obtained. The pretty uniforms with all the patches and qualification badges were worn in camp, training areas, or other rear areas. The proof is in the photos taken at the time.

 

The comment was made earlier to collect what you enjoy collecting. If you want one or two Tiger Stripe sets to spice up your collection that is OK. If you want to find examples of every variation made, that is fine as well.

 

Will there be other reference books on Tiger Stripe uniforms? I am sure there will be eventually. I'd like to see Richard take his extensive knowledge and add in more history of what units wore them and when. I am sure that is a good project for somebody.

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Here are three different pieces of tiger stripe we have now that are original with patches. In our shop right now we probably have 60 or 70 pieces of tiger stripe but these again, are the only ones with insignia on them. The first is a great gold tiger stripe that is badged out to a LLDB advisor. The next is a 75th ranger attached to the 1st cav with direct embroidered insignia.

goldts.JPGdets1.JPGdets2.JPG


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ASMIC Executive President

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Hi,

 

Very nice jackets, we don't see often fully badged tiger stripe. Bob, did you make any research about this LLDB advisor ? I really love the Mike Force jacket since it was customized by adding cigarett pocket on the sleeve, it s an Asian cut jacket that doesn't have sleeve pocket like the US cut.

 

 

 

we will add the other photo later, as for some reason the photos aren't loading right.

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Very nice tunics i see there

 

thanks Bob

 

Hi,

 

Very nice jackets, we don't see often fully badged tiger stripe. Bob, did you make any research about this LLDB advisor ? I really love the Mike Force jacket since it was customized by adding cigarett pocket on the sleeve, it s an Asian cut jacket that doesn't have sleeve pocket like the US cut.


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