WW1 Indianhead patches

[cwnorma]

JAROSLAV,

 

In my opinion:

 

(1st row) 1/5 Good, S/5 Good, MG/5 Good

(2nd row) 2/5 Probably fake, 1/5 Probably good, HQ/5 Probably fake

(3rd row) 1/5 1920's or fake, 3/5 Might be good, HQ/5 Fake

(4th row) H/5 Fake, 1/5 Might be good, H/5 probably good

 

(top row) MG/6 Good, HQ/6 1920's or fake

(bottom row) 2/6 Good, 1/6 Might be good, S/6 Good.

 

Chris

 

 

 

Over years I have collected photos of some indianhead patches, I am not sure if these are original or reproductions. If there is someone specialized in this field, I would appreciate to send comments regarding unit, the patch represents and regarding originality of patches. I will post more patches in soon future once I prepare more charts.

 

JAROSLAV

[cwnorma]

All,

 

Here is a small photo essay of WW1 2nd Division Stars. I would call this the "issued" pattern as it is by far the most commonly seen in period photographs. It is also the type most commonly encountered on original uniforms.

 

 

 

 

Not only is this the most common real version, many fakes, with varying degrees of accuracy, have been based on this pattern.

 

As a side note, these patches were probably manufactured by the same unknown (probably German) manufacturer that made this 77th division patch. They share the same characteristics of embroidery.

 

 

Thanks to Mort for the 77th Division Patch.

 

 

Chris

[cwnorma]

Here are some stars that give me pause:

 

 

 

All are similar to the known good ones, but do exhibit differences in details and style of embroidery.

 

Chris

[bayonetman]

This is the only 2nd Division uniform I have ever owned, and have no idea if the SSI is correct or not. I was told it was the third battalion of one of the two Army regiments, but don't remember which.

 

I welcome comments from those better informed than myself. The blue background is actually darker than the photo shows, the flash brightened it up quite a bit.

 

[cwnorma]

This is one of the ink versions of the star, probably the most common of this variety. This particular version shows up in period photos quite often and is quite distinguishable by it's lantern-jawed indian. The indians all appear very similar, but each shows some differences--as though the same artist "inked" them all, but being hand done, no two are exactly the same. Considering how often these show up in photgraphs and on uniforms, the artist who made these must have been busy indeed!

 

 

I used to think the patch below was a fake until I ran across one at the 2nd Division Museum in Korea. I now believe them to have been made for reunions some time in the post-war period.

 

[usmc-collector]

Chris,

thank you for your help regarding identification and originality of patches, I really appreciate it, please visit this link http://www.usmc.cz/patches.htm and send me your opinion regarding other patches I displayed there (about 60 other examples). I will add it to the table. I am not owner of the displayed patches, but I have collected the photos of them over the years from internet or other collectors.

 

JAROSLAV

[KurtA]

This one's on a uniform that I bought from the vet's granddaugther. Painted Indian with a velvet shield. And the Army Of Occupation insignia below.

Kurt

[KurtA]

And this was in the pocket. Helps tell who the uniform belonged to and when/where he was stationed. (it sure would have made it easier on us future collectors if every WW1 vet thought to put one of these in their uniform pocket!)

Kurt

[cwnorma]

Kurt,

 

That looks like "old chief lantern-jaw" Nice uniform!

 

Chris

 

This one's on a uniform that I bought from the vet's granddaugther. Painted Indian with a velvet shield. And the Army Of Occupation insignia below.

Kurt

[KurtA]

Kurt,

 

That looks like "old chief lantern-jaw" Nice uniform!

 

Chris

 

Chris-

The official name of this style is "Jay Leno Type IIa."

Kurt

[BEAST]

Here is mine from an ID'd 23rd Infantry uniform. Earlier, I posted this uniform on a seperate thread.

 

Here is the indian head from his CdG.

 

[GIl Sanow]

Here is mine from an ID'd 23rd Infantry uniform. Earlier, I posted this uniform on a seperate thread.

 

Here is the indian head from his CdG.

 

 

That may be the first Croix de Guerre fourragiere I have ever seen with the proper insignia added.

[Hellwood]

 

Hello to All from here Belleau Wood area France,

 

Thanks for started this topic about USMC uniforms of WW1 and 2nd Division patches, I agree with Allan & Chris about these patches which look to be fakes, and I'm sure that they are ! I'm an avid collector of USMC WW1 and 2nd division since many years and have never seen such, or just they came a few years ago, and I've seen so many fakes on "ebay" USA.

Yes, we need to advertise collectors about these fakes ..........

I'll post here a few of my patches on forest green uniforms and 2nd division from my museum about Belleau Wood to give an idea to all of you about how are looking real patches WW1.....

Best to all,

Gilles

[Hellwood]

Here a few more......Note the one on US Navy Corpsman attached to the 1st Bat. 5th Regiment USMC

 

 

 

Lot of patches made in Germany never sewn on uniforms, 5th regiment USMC, Headquarter, 3rd Battalion, and 6th regiment supply company

 

 

Nice forest green tunic from a Navy Corpsman attached to the 1st Bat 5th Regiment USMC

 

 

 

6th Machine Gun Battalion USMC note that this one was made with blue cloth background, I know some of them made as such

 

 

Headquarter company 12th Field artillery with black velvelt background

 

 

23rd Infantry 1st battalion

 

[Hellwood]

Few more again..........

 

 

 

 

 

1st battalion 5th Regiment

 

 

5th Regiment regimental machine gun company ( 8th Mg Company)

 

 

3rd battalion 15th Field artillery

[GIl Sanow]

Few more again..........

 

1st battalion 5th Regiment

 

 

5th Regiment regimental machine gun company ( 8th Mg Company)

 

 

3rd battalion 15th Field artillery

 

This one is on the uniform of James Scarbrough, courtesy of grandson Byron Scarbrough.

[fightn5th]

Here's another

 

[korea drab]

Found this ones at ebay today

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=190182321944

Nice ones

KH

[korea drab]

Second today

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-U-S-Army-2nd-Divis...emZ320194803364

[korea drab]

Third

http://cgi.ebay.com/US-WWI-2nd-Division-9t...emZ180188375114

[korea drab]

And this today,looks like done in Germany.The news paper is german!

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-THEATER-MADE-2ND-D...emZ160199718809

[jurgo]

And this today,looks like done in Germany.The news paper is german!

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-THEATER-MADE-2ND-D...emZ160199718809

WOW german made from WW1

[devildog34]

Finally I have been able to upload a photo that was not "too big for the space available" As a new member, who has for many years been kind of a low key collector I figured I'd chime in on this and offer a picture of one of my 2nd division patch and get everyone's two cents on it. It is perhaps my favorite uniform, although not the nicest one I own as far as condition is concerned. Let me know what you all think. As a once new collector several years ago, I got burned, I am sure we have all been burned at one time or another, as I feel that this in some ways is a difficult thing to avoid as a young new collector. I am not implying that anyone here is a new, "inexperienced" collector but I will admit that I have had a 2nd division army uniform with what I thought was a good legit 5th Marines patch that turned out to be totally bogus and I chalked it up as an expensive learning experience, I paid 400 for it and now it is sitting in a closet as a painful reminder that there are sadly enough some people who will take advantage of the valuable history of these things. I hope that I can post more photos of some of my 2nd division tunics that will fit the file size allowed.

-Semper Fi, K. Seldon

[Schnicklfritz]

From what I have heard in the past, the orange background on 2nd Div USMC patches is the first variation on the 2nd Btn of the 5th and 6th Regiments. Very nice and not commonly encountered. Have seen a 6th Regiment patch with an orange background a few years ago.

Cheers!

Marc

[cwnorma]

Please consider posting a picture of your "bogus" 2nd Division patch. One of the best things about this forum is the exchange of information. Perhaps you can save some young collector out there the heartache you once felt at having been burned.

 

Yes, we all have been burned at one time or another. So I think nearly everyone here understands.

 

This is a lovely example of the first type (orange) occupation (German) made, 2nd Battalion, 5th Regiment patch. Because the Orange looked like faded red, the second type (mustard yellow) soon replaced it.

 

Also, if you are having difficulty sizing photographs, Forum Admin also has written several posts about how to do it.

 

Finally, best wishes, and welcome to the forum!

 

Chris

 

<snip> Let me know what you all think. As a once new collector several years ago, I got burned, I am sure we have all been burned at one time or another, as I feel that this in some ways is a difficult thing to avoid as a young new collector. I am not implying that anyone here is a new, "inexperienced" collector but I will admit that I have had a 2nd division army uniform with what I thought was a good legit 5th Marines patch that turned out to be totally bogus and I chalked it up as an expensive learning experience, I paid 400 for it and now it is sitting in a closet as a painful reminder that there are sadly enough some people who will take advantage of the valuable history of these things. I hope that I can post more photos of some of my 2nd division tunics that will fit the file size allowed.

-Semper Fi, K. Seldon