Thoughts on this "Patton" Model 1913 Sabre

[tsellati]

I am interested in adding a U.S. Model 1913 Cavalry sabre to my collection. I came across this one on an auction that just ended (I was not the winner) and wanted feedback on its authenticity, correctness (i.e., original unmodified condition?), and price (low, average, or high?).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing any opinions and or pointers on what to look for, what to avoid, and how much to pay, etc.

 

Tim

[Spathologist]

My "arch nemesis" bucky got that one, he bids high for things he wants. I was curious about his bid for this one because aside from being a decent specimen (and he has nicer) there's nothing really special about it that I can see.

 

It's a Springfield Armory M1913, made as indicated on the blade in calendar year 1914. Serial number is in the correct range for that year. Springfield Armory sabers can be found with blades dated 1913-1918, all serial numbered, some years are scarcer than others. LF&C made the sabers under contract in 1918, and blades are found with 1918 and 1919 dates, 1919 being the scarcer of the two. The first ~4000 were made with serial numbers, subsequent sabers were made without.

 

Though both Springfield and LF&C sabers are commonly called "M1913s", LF&C sabers are referred to in period Ordnance documents as the M1917; there are several minor differences in part and blade construction between the M1913 Springfield sabers and M1917 LF&C sabers, though all parts are interchangeable between the two. It is not uncommon to encounter a M1913 saber with M1917 parts and vice-versa. Armorers used what they had on hand to repair/refurbish sabers.

 

The saber in this auction has a M1917 pommel installed, distinguishable from the M1913 pommel by the smaller thumb rest and the pointy end of the stippling at the rear of the pommel. M1913 pommels have larger thumb rests, and the stippling goes farther to the rear and lacks the pronounced point you can see on this saber. It also looks to have a M1917 guard; the turned edges are round. The turned edges on M1913 guards are flattened. I can't see enough of the ferrule to tell if it's a M1913 or M1917 part; the differences are in the chamfers on the forward edges and the turn of the corners.

 

This by itself would raise no flags, as the parts exchanges could easily have happened during the service life of the weapon. Is it "original"? No. Is it "as issued and correct"? Yes. The only thing that would give me pause is the loosened pommel screw. It might indicate that a prior owner disassembled it and couldn't get it back together, or perhaps swapped better-condition parts with another saber. Whatever the reason, when the saber is correctly assembled the pommel screw is not difficult to install. There might be a problem with this one. Or it might be just a loose screw.

 

The scabbard is what I call a "type III", with the tip that doesn't incorporate a tent pole peg. I call the tent pole peg a type I, and a scabbard with the tent pole peg ground off a type II. A type III scabbard could be "original" to a saber with this date and serial number, but once again they are interchangeable and were interchanged at the unit. Many were painted an olive drab during their service, but this one has remained unpainted and that is good. The canvas is intact, no visible repairs, the rivets are all present, the seller states the metal is still tight to the scabbard. Can't tell for sure from the pics, but it looks like it might still have some of the grey-green finish later scabbards left the arsenal with. Aside from a few extra, and minor, dents in the mouthpiece, it looks to be a nice scabbard.

 

The blade has some corrosion that looks like it will have pitting underneath. M1913/M1917 blades are many times slightly bent, as are the scabbards, and the seller mentions nothing about this. I would ask. While I'm asking, I would inquire about small cracks in the blade; many M1913s have them but I haven't seen any on M1917 sabers. It's missing the leather washer that fits to the front of the guard, but all parts look to be in good shape, with no bends or dents on the guard and no cracks or chips in the grip panels. All screws look to be present.

 

Like I said, a respectable example of an issued weapon, but nothing special that I can see. The price was maybe a touch towards the high end of prices for a regular M1913/1917 in this condition.

 

That's the stuff I look for in a general sense. If you have more specific questions I'll be glad to try and answer them.

[tsellati]

If you have more specific questions I'll be glad to try and answer them.

 

Varangian,

 

Holy cow, "more specific questions"? You are awesome, you answered questions I would not even think to ask a seller. This information is a great resource for me and the education is much appreciated.

 

Tim

[Spathologist]

Glad I could be of help!

[Charlie Flick]

Good info, Varangian. Are you keeping a database on the Patton swords?

 

So what price did this one actually sell for?

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

[Spathologist]

Good info, Varangian. Are you keeping a database on the Patton swords?

 

So what price did this one actually sell for?

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

 

Yes, I keep a database on serial-numbered blades, and any oddities I encounter.

 

The saber above sold for ~$450 including shipping. About $25 or so more than "average" for a saber in this condition, though prices have been fluctuating through a wide range lately with the average edging upwards. If anyone has an interest in acquiring one of these sabers for their collection, now might be a good time to pick up a nice example while they're fairly available and still reasonable in price. The days of a $250-300 Patton look to be gone.

[pony soldier]

This is "arch nemesis" checking in on this saber. I had not intended to win this auction however that is the way it went. The second place bidder could have taken me out with his next minimum bid as I was only a half amount away. Be that as it may I, like Varangian, have a passion for these blades. I have a fascination for serial numbers, which can reveal a great deal about the progress of the item. I have been gathering numbers for the last ten years. I have all dates and makers for the Patton. In addition I have been able to collect several unusual specimens, such as the recently acquired serial number 33 which was attributed to the "China Marines".

 

The history to me seems difficult to believe as the first 200 sabers made in 1913 were sent to the 11th cavalry for trials. They were marked on the guard with a "B and 11" which this saber carries. On completion of the testing where they went is unknown to me at this time. I assume they were returned to the Armory and eventually reissued. Such an early number suggests it would have stayed in the states. The saber was sold at an auction near Fort Lee, VA. which was home to a number of military officers who could have been in China and would have had the clout to bring it back to the states.

 

Also in my collection is the model 1905/1906 experimental saber, serial numbers 80 and 85. I note that serial number 81 is in the Springfield Armory collection. I still search for the elusive M1911, someday!!!!

 

Regards, Pony Soldier (Bucky 1898 on Ebay)

 

Ken Andrews

[Spathologist]

This is "arch nemesis" checking in on this saber.

 

 

Hi, Ken! I had no idea who Bucky was. I was #2 bidder on #33 and #85..thus you were my "arch nemesis". Glad to see they found a good home!

 

I'm really envious of #33, though.

 

Where can I find a reference on the first 200 M1913s being sent to the 11th Cav? I haven't run across that bit of info.

[billl]

Good source of info. I have what seems to be a nice speciment saber, but with wooden grips. While well-enough done, they look "wrong." Does anyone know where I can pick up replacement grips for a patton saber?

[doyler]

Good source of info. I have what seems to be a nice speciment saber, but with wooden grips. While well-enough done, they look "wrong." Does anyone know where I can pick up replacement grips for a patton saber?

 

 

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EW319

[billl]

Thanks. They aren't responding to my query. Perhaps on Monday. Do you know if the grips they list on their site fit

sabers marked both 1913 and 1914?

[doyler]

Thanks. They aren't responding to my query. Perhaps on Monday. Do you know if the grips they list on their site fit

sabers marked both 1913 and 1914?

 

I never have ordered from them.

 

Not sure what models they fit.

[reschenk]

Ref the "China Marine" swords addressed in your note above. I was once told these could be identified by the color of the scabbard. Is this true? If so, what is the distinctive color? I see some of these scabbards have plain canvas coverings, and others that appear to have been painted, usually an olive green. Is there any significance to these variations? Was the painting an official modification?

 

Although these Patton sabers are outside my primary area of interest, i.e. early Federal period to CW US military swords, I have recently been picking up representative examples of post-CW models and I can see myself becomming adicted to them. I just acquired two M1913 sabers, one an SA the other an LF&C, at the same sale which the 3 M1911s were featured. I have really enjoyed the posts you and Varangian have put on this site addressing the various technical details and variationin s of the M1913/7s. (If you are still collecting serial numbers, my new SA is a 1914, SN 22242, with a type 2 scabbard.) I also just ordered the Farrington book on post-CW Army swords. I'm afraid as I get more knowledge, I might well get hooked! At any rate, thanks to both of you for helping educate me on these facinating swords.

[Spathologist]

It's a pleasure to share, and thanks for the SN!

[reschenk]

Glad to share the SN info, although unfortunately it doesn't extend the earliest/latest-known range.

 

Any insights on the issue of painting on the scabbards?

[Spathologist]

My understanding is that they were painted green when the canvas became so filthy thst it was un-military in appearance.

[reschenk]

Thanks! I guess that makes sense, but on the other hand, having a mix of painted and unpainted scabbards in the same unit would not look too military either- uniformity is usually a priority. Perhaps the whole unit would have its scabbards painted at the same time when the bulk of them began looking too ratty.

[reschenk]

Attached is a shot of the hilt of a M1913 LF&C saber. Is the padding something which was normally used with these? I don't think I've seen one before.

 

[pony soldier]

Hello:

 

The felt pad you see on the LF&C saber is a armory sponsored item. It was intended to absorb some of the impact shock derived from contact. They are fairly uncommon to find these days. I will look for the actual paperwork from the armory this evening and try to post additional info tomorrow.

 

Pony Soldier

[Spathologist]

Sergeant R.E. Futch, an Assistant Instructor of Swordsmanship at the Cavalry School, made the first pad from the felt in saddle pads, and recommended them for adoption in May of 1923. The recommendation went forward and testing on variations of Futch's pad was completed by January 1924 and final approval was granted on 14 March 1924. The pad was mandated to be a regular issue item, at one per saber, in Circular 58 of 1924.

 

I have copies of the correspondence and test report.