Three Civil War Swords…Horstmann & Sons, Philadelphia- Ames (1864)…Roby (1863)

[drm2m]

(Click on the images to enlarge them...once enlarged...click again on the image.)

 

Model 1850 Foot Officers Sword- Horstmann & Sons, Philadelphia marked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Model 1840 Musicians swords.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Model 1840 Musicians Sword- Ames manufactured-dated 1864.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Model 1840 Musicians sword...- Roby manufactured –dated 1863.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Civil War Era Musician Sword Makers

 

Ames Mfg. Co. The Ames Company started production of military contract swords in 1832 with the M1832 foot artillery sword, and ended with the M1906 cavalry saber in 1906. Ames produced more swords for the American military than any other company before or since, totalling over 200,000 swords in service by the end of the Civil War. In that time, at least ten different manufacturing marks were used on the swords. A little knowledge of the company history helps place a date range for when each stamp was used. When the company started producing swords it was led by Nathan P. Ames, and most marks reflected that fact. In 1847, Nathan died and left the company to his brother James. The markings on the blades were immediately changed from N.P. Ames to Ames Mfg. Co. In 1848, the town of Cabotville was incorporated into Chicopee, Massachusetts, and the marks were once again changed to reflect this. The M1832 foot artillery swords, being Ames's first swords, were stamped with the eagle trademark already common on their other products. The early models of this sword were marked as having been made in Springfield instead of Cabotville. The 1840 models of musician swords tend to have identical styles of marks for corresponding years. The 1840 models’ were originally marked with N.P. Ames/Cabotville/date in the 1840s, followed by Ames Mfg. Co. /Cabotville/date around 1847, then by Ames Mfg. Co/Chicoppee/Mass in the 1850s. Sometime in the late 1850s Ames started using a new mark on all enlisted models that was carried through the Civil War. The words Made by/Ames Mfg. Co/Chicopee/Mass are enclosed within an unravelled scroll, and initials/US/date is stamped on the opposite side of the blade.

 

 

 

Christopher Roby, W. Chelmsford, Mass. Christopher Roby ran a prolific, but short-lived sword making business from 1861 until 1867. In this time, his company produced 3500 M1840 musician swords (dated 1863-65). The musician swords had a circular mark made up of the words C. Roby W. Chelmsford MS. The 1865 dated swords were not delivered until after the cessation of hostilities, and therefore never saw active duty during the war. The Roby Company went bankrupt and sold its name and equipment shortly after the war.

 

 

The United States has its own history of child soldiers. During the U.S. Civil War (1861-1865), thousands of boys under the age of 18 served in the Union and Confederate armies. But most of those boys didn't carry weapons--they were armed with musical instruments: drums, bugles, and fifes.

Army rules prevented boys from enlisting as soldiers but did permit them to be military musicians. Most of the boys knew very little about music. They were just anxious to be a part of the war effort. Playing an instrument during the Civil War didn't mean entertaining troops between battles. Musicians played an important role in the war. Every part of the army's daily routine had its own musical call. Music signaled to soldiers when it was time to get up, assemble, eat, and sleep. Musicians also played an important role in battle by giving commands with their music. A drumbeat, for example, told soldiers how fast to march and when to retreat.

 

 

David

[SARGE]

David,

 

Very nice wartime swords! Also, a nice history on the Ames markings as well as the Roby company. I think the Musician swords have been under appreciated in the past but try to find a nice one today. It is also interesting that Musicians were generally carried on the Staff & Field rolls instead of the company muster rolls to emphasize their separate status. It makes researching these guys a little more difficult until you figure out what was going on with the muster rolls though.

[Greg Sebring]

David,

 

I have a ROBY dated 1864 in so so condition. It shows a lot of wear. I wanted to ask your opinion of an age old debate concerning the scabbards. Mine has a dent in it near the bottom. I have heard that in many cases this was deliberately done to reduce a rattling noise. What's your take on this topic??

 

Greg

 

P.S. Your swords look very good

[drm2m]

Greg,

 

There may be others that are in a better position to answer your question.

I have also heard the same comment concerning the metal scabbards for heavier swords....I don't know how correct it is.

 

(Click on the bar to enlarge the images....once enlarged click again on the image...this will not change the period photos. These photos do not belong to me.)

 

 

J.F. and J.H. inspector's markings on the Model 1840 Musicians sword that was manufactured by Ames.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A.G.M. inspector's markings on the Model 1840 Musicians sword manufactured by Roby.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The non-musical duties of bandsmen were primarily medical. Before battles, bandsmen

gathered wood for splints and helped set up field hospitals. During and after the fighting, they carried the wounded to hospitals, helped surgeons perform amputations, and discarded limbs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Army regulations of 1863 allowed the superintendent of recruiting depots to enlist, as field musicians, boys of twelve years of age and upward who had a natural talent for music. After enlisting, field musicians of the Regular Army could be sent to the School of Practice on Governor's Island, New York. They were billeted opposite from Brooklyn, at the Old South Battery.

 

 

 

 

 

Shown below is B-Flat Civil War Fife which is marked U.S. 1862.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Each regiment had a band which consisted of drummers and fife players. They inspired the men on the march and entertained in camp. There were also specific cadences, or drum beats, which directed troops to march in a specific order. In a few cases, regiment bands were quite large and lavish when well-to-do officers endowed them with financial support. The government tried to stifle such excess but the soldiers still found ways around the regulations. Christmas and cultural holidays were often met with parties, balls and formal dinners. If the camp location was secure, the soldier’s wives and families could attend. The bands were then employed to entertain while many of the soldiers often sang in groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In addition to the bands of the Regular Army and the volunteer militias, there were field musicians. Field musicians, comprising of drummers and buglers, sounded camp calls and battlefield signals. They were not part of the band, and few could read music. Field musicians learned by rote the calls sounded at specific times in camp or upon command in battle.

 

 

 

 

 

Army bandsmen's pay was substantially higher during the Civil War than previous years. The chief musician received $45.00 per month, one-fourth of the bandsmen received $35.00, another fourth received $20.00, and the remaining half received $17.00. The drum major also received $17.00. Fifers, drummers, and buglers were paid $12.00 per month. Musicians were by no means overpaid when their high casualty rate is taken into account. A reference to the record of the 125th Ohio Regimental Band (known as the Tiger Band) shows that only 10 of the original 36 members of this organization could still be accounted for at the end of the war in 1865.

 

 

David

[Dave]

All

 

I'm helping a guy do some valuations for an estate. There's an 1862 dated Ames Musician sword in what I would consider very good to excellent condition like the ones above - e.g. Clean blade, light wear on the brass hilt, etc. but missing the scabbard. Any idea of what this might be worth on average? I have no clue when it comes to civil war blades, so help is appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

Dave

[SARGE]

Dave,

 

These common M1840 Musician and NCO swords are a hard sell without a scabbard. I would think in the $100 - $150 range as you describe it. A scabbard would more than double the price IMHO.

[Horseclover]

Tom Nardi's ballpark sheet is from 2008 but the market has been pretty stable. Generally speaking, a scabbard is indeed half (or more) the value.

http://www.cds1.net/...ords/values.htm

 

The best gauge is to watch what prices are fetching as completed sales, such as Ebay listings. A better than fair sword without a scabbard will sell higher than a sword with lots of issues and with no scabbard. The nco and musician swords are very plentiful but a pretty one without a scabbard might top $150.

 

Cheers

 

GC

 

Meant to add that Nardi's pricing is what one would might find at a dealer, so a bit over street. Also a note that dates can play a part in values for American Civil War swords.

[bigsam]

How is it possible to date a sword i obtained a Horstmann Naval sword i'll try to add a few pics but there seems to be no date just a name engraved

[Spathologist]

The name might help, if it pops up in the officer registries.

[bigsam]

i can't read the first name last name is Wilson

[bigsam]

sorry i replied so quickly Officers registry ? where can i find it THANKS

[Spathologist]

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/USN/Naval_Registers/

 

Googling "Register of commissioned and warrant officers of the United States Navy and Marine Corps and reserve officers on active duty" will also yield registers.

[Bob B]

Measurements of the blade can help date the Model 1852 Naval Officer sword.  Civil War period swords had a wider, slightly curved blade, measuring about 1  1/8 inch wide or slightly more at the ricasso. In the 1870's the width of the blade was reduced to an inch or even less. In the early 20th century the blade became straight.  To me it looks like yours is the thinner blade from after 1870.

[reschenk]

Harvey Wilson graduated. from the Naval Academy

and was commissioned on 7 June 1919 and resigned as a LT (JG) on 15 March 1923.  He undoubtedly purchased his sword about the time he was commissioned which fits the Horstmann markings on the blade.

[bigsam]

thanks Bob B and reschenk for the great information i have been looking but you folks found the info again THANKS      Sam