Help with a M4A2 flak helmet restoration.

[Manky bandage]

As the title says, could do with a bit of assistance. Managed to snag this poorly looking M4A2 for a half decent price, unfortunately it is missing its ear flaps. Now I can imagine the flaps got ripped out for a reason, or they could of just got lost over time. The plan however is to recreate the flaps and the steel inserts. 

 

Now for the questions, and what I could do with some assistance with. Short of purchasing a complete one; or leaving it as is and displaying it as a place filler for the earlier M4, I could do with Some measurements of the fabric flap outer bits. Also what the insert on the inside feels like, is it a one piece formed bit of Hadfield Manganese? Or is it rigid and build up of multiple parts.  If anyone could do drawing complete with some measurements and roughly an idea of the overall shape of the insert, I should be able to create a template. 

 

Utter madness? Yeah maybe, it could be fun though and I enjoy making stuff. 

 

I seem to remember seeing a few pictures of some C47 and glider pilots wearing these, and I'm sure one of them is actually an earlier M4 as the fabric area was also missing. If anyone knows of those images or has come across others, feel free to share.

 

 

 

[phantomfixer]

Is this a modified A2? The leather chin straps look factory.. like a M4 but has the goggle straps 

 

either way, A2s are common enough to leave this as is.. especially if modified during its service life

[dmar836]

I would gladly trade you one with ear flaps for that one.

Dave

[Manky bandage]

It is entirely possible that it was modified at some point, I’ll get some clearer images once I get some down time. 
 

Would pilots of worn these with the flaps? 

4 hours ago, dmar836 said:

I would gladly trade you one with ear flaps for that one.

Dave

I’ll keep that in mind appreciate it, I am over in England though. 

[dmar836]

I have no clue about the mods but I wouldn't mess with that one just in case. The others are too common. I have two with the cups intact that appear unissued or with little use. I say I'd trade as I would still have one but with another that is a "variant" to the norm. My collection is "representative" that way.

We are typically in the London area in Dec but this year we will be all over the US in Nov so not sure about being over this time then. The Norwich area is on our map - likely the next time we are over. I can post pics of mine for reference or just for you to see what I have to trade. Yes, it would be a convoluted deal, but it's the fun kind of thing my wife and I like to do. 

We once flew together such a distance(several states here) to get a pair of AN-T-35 shearling trousers to replace the mint pair I had that a neighbor's dog chewed the butt out of. Landed, fueled, met the guy in the FBO, and flew home with replacement trousers. Note: Close and lock the war room door when dog sitting!

I'd be willing to make it a long term promise, maybe sometime in late '26-'27, if you really thought you'd do it.

Dave  

[5thwingmarty]

I don't see evidence of the ear flaps ever having been on this helmet, so this looks like it was factory made this way.  Is there an actual tag inside this helmet?

[Manky bandage]

It has an M4a2 on the inside, I find the whole line up of the series rather complicated, Ive come across M4 labels with penned in a2 as well as M4a1s crossed out with a2 inked in its place. Probably a case of using up old stock labels, or retrofitting previous iterations with later components maybe at factory or workshop level possibly even both. 
 

Still digging for some C47 pilot images wearing them. 

 

dmar, sounds fun to me and would be awesome, plenty of time for me to decide.

 

 

[Manky bandage]

Some better images whilst I’ve got w moment to myself. 
 

It’s certainly seen a bit of use, I actually tried it on with the headset and a number of different sunglasses, AN6531s, D1 goggles and various RAF issue types and all actually fit relatively comfortable in this configuration. 

[dmar836]

Manky,

Thanks for some close ups. With both sides of the shell having different material it certainly appears modded with the ear cups removed. That's fine but the question to me would be "when"? I need to look for some pics but I doubt I'll find any with close up details. I have a busy weekend and few days but I'll post some up close pics of both of mine. 

Please forgive my assessment if it sounds critical. I hope it is received it as intended.

I hate to say it but it almost appears to be a newer mod. I say that due primarily to the uneven and sloppy stitching at the seams. Can you tell if that is hand stitched? Another curiosity is the thin, white stitching around the inside perimeter of the webbing edge. It doesn't appear as heavy as the green stitching on the outside of the edging. While many field/depot mods were be hastily done, and with many shortcuts, they tend to have a uniform military look. One thing they knew how to do was sew while using military spec goods. The shell would likely just be removed, modded and reattached.  

The hasp and it's leather appears as if it is a bit different than the leather loop - almost as if it was removed from another item and attached to the loop. The sloppy stitching there adds to that assumption.

This may be 100% field modded during the war but every the critical areas that would need to be restiched with this type of mod are the areas that look like they were home-done with light duty materials - maybe even by hand. This is the beauty of assessing such variants. It presents well but does bring up those questions.

 I say this as one who has dabbled in such dark arts. Not modifying original stuff or faking things but heavy duty sewing and sometimes unique materials.

Until later,

Dave    

[phantomfixer]

The close up pics help a lot…

 

Years ago… here it comes…the local AN had their in-house seamstress stitch a new / replacement ear flap on a M4A2.. she was very good and close inspection only revealed thread differences… 

 

point being it isn’t unheard of to repair modify these shells…

[The Rooster]

4 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Manky,

Thanks for some close ups. With both sides of the shell having different material it certainly appears modded with the ear cups removed. That's fine but the question to me would be "when"? I need to look for some pics but I doubt I'll find any with close up details. I have a busy weekend and few days but I'll post some up close pics of both of mine. 

Please forgive my assessment if it sounds critical. I hope it is received it as intended.

I hate to say it but it almost appears to be a newer mod. I say that due primarily to the uneven and sloppy stitching at the seams. Can you tell if that is hand stitched? Another curiosity is the thin, white stitching around the inside perimeter of the webbing edge. It doesn't appear as heavy as the green stitching on the outside of the edging. While many field/depot mods were be hastily done, and with many shortcuts, they tend to have a uniform military look. One thing they knew how to do was sew while using military spec goods. The shell would likely just be removed, modded and reattached.  

The hasp and it's leather appears as if it is a bit different than the leather loop - almost as if it was removed from another item and attached to the loop. The sloppy stitching there adds to that assumption.

This may be 100% field modded during the war but every the critical areas that would need to be restiched with this type of mod are the areas that look like they were home-done with light duty materials - maybe even by hand. This is the beauty of assessing such variants. It presents well but does bring up those questions.

 I say this as one who has dabbled in such dark arts. Not modifying original stuff or faking things but heavy duty sewing and sometimes unique materials.

Until later,

Dave    

Manky...

check this thread....

 

www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/64177-m-4-flak-helmet-questions/

[dmar836]

Manky,

My longer post was lost (!) Can you take some close ups of the seam stitching and the latch where it is stitched on? BTW, it's likely from the same helmet.

Thanks,

Dave

[Manky bandage]

I’m leaning towards this being a restored (sort of) M4a2. And after discussing with the previous owner, the buckle and strap was replaced using salvaged A11 components and he also did the side panels on the shell itself as it was in a sorry state when he got it.
 

The U shaped yokes however look to of been period done and the stitching does look better there. So it’s a couple of a things; a restoration retro fitted helmet to an earlier specification using original period parts. Or a restoration of an -already modified helmet, the yoke stitching does in my opinion look better than the rest.

Either way, it will do as a displayable and usable placeholder for a while until I pick up an original unmolested example. Once I get some down time I’ll give it a good going over and examine the stitching. Certainly an interesting learning curve so far and great to see people’s thoughts and opinions. 

I’m leaning towards leaving it as is, still looking around for images of these in use by glider and troop transport pilots. I had a file of really good images but lost them on the old PC unfortunately.