ID’D USMC Raider and L/3/9 PH recipient Painted seabag worth

[Gear Fanatic]

Don’t plan on selling this item. But with it being ID’d to a raider that was on Guadalcanal and was later awarded a PH I feel there has to be a pretty scarce item and probably pretty valuable with the raider connection. Just a ballpark would be helpful. I would only ever let go of this for a really nice trade. But in order to know that I need to have an idea of value on this item. Thanks and let me know!

[Blacksmith]

I am curious, when do you imagine this was painted?

[Gear Fanatic]

I would imagine this was painted after he was wounded on Guam. Probably in his time recuperating in a hospital as I would imagine he would have a lot of free time. That or on his way back stateside. That is what I would think. I don’t see any other time he could’ve done it. It’s finitely been around for a long time. There was cobwebs all up in it. There was bunch of sheets all stuffed in it as well. 

[ludwigh1980]

Glad I wasn't the only one. Un-fortunately I don't get a warm fuzzy about this piece. The sea bag is one of the most heavily used pieces of gear that remains with a Sailor, Soldier or Marine. It gets thrown, tossed, sit on, wrinkled, folded up, lived out of, rained on, kicked etc. It sets in the sun, rain, wind etc. If it happens to make it home with servicemember, it gets thrown in the garage, basement, attic, shed or barn. It holds his uniform for 50-70 plus years, or the family tent, or the tarps for his cars or his duck decoys for his forays into to the wood or lake. Every Navy or Marine unis painted bag that I have had, and I could count that on one hand, was water stained, faded, paint worn with wrinkles and folds, mouse chewed etc. This one looks like it was painted a couple months ago.  Anything Raider associated I would immediately suspect, unless I dug it out of the barn or attic myself. No wear to the paint whatsoever. Just my opinion. To be honest: there are far too many UNIS marked objects that are surfacing of late on ebay or else well. Such items have always been seldom encountered and unfortunately are easy to fake and now that collectors understand the significance they have become very hotly pursued. 

[Brig]

Lots of painted seabags survived in great shape. Seabag values are almost entirely based on the artwork. Sure, the Marine being from a desirable unit doesn't hurt, but it doesn't add a lot of value if the artwork isn't of significant interest or quality. The artwork on this is pretty typical and plain, and honestly I don't think the fact it belonged to a wounded Raider would raise the value significantly...seabags were garrison items that stayed on the ship during invasions and don't command nearly the prices of field gear.

 

The most likely situation this would be faked is if a Raider's name was added to a period unnamed seabag to try to squeeze a few extra bucks from the sale. In such a case, the wear to the paint would be inconsistent with the rest of the bag. The fact that a lot of paint remains doesn't mean a lot, plenty of awesome bags survived intact as the veterans who painted them often kept them inside a footlocker or chest rather than tossed into the garage.

 

 

[Gear Fanatic]

Don’t get me wrong I see your point. But I don’t believe that is the case on this one. For one on the wear of the paint. The paint is fairly bright on the front and faded on the back, there are a ton of folds on it where you can see it was sitting for a long time and it was bleached on these folds and the folded parts retained color. This is also visible on the paint and you can see on the third MarDiv logo has folds where the paint is wearing off. Second, this was not bought from another collector or any sort of person who had much knowledge on this kind of thing. It was sitting in my friends grandmas neighbors garage and they are moving so she is cleaning out the garage and asked him if he knew anyone who liked military stuff. So he called me. I drove out about an hour to go get it from the home. I also posted the pictures that the neighbor took of it in the garage (they aren’t focused because they were selling the drill press in the corner) and third, with this being painted so late in this marines wartime service it would also make sense that there is not as much wear since it probably was used just on his way back stateside and then discarded. Also, if someone was going to fake a raider item why wouldn’t they paint the raider emblem instead of the 3rdmardiv. Emblem? That would garner more attention and be more appealing right? I am fully willing to entertain that viewpoint. But in my opinion I don’t believe that this is a humped up piece. I apologize for the long winded response, just want to clearly represent my stance. Thank you both for your comments.

[Gear Fanatic]

10 minutes ago, Brig said:

Lots of painted seabags survived in great shape. Seabag values are almost entirely based on the artwork. Sure, the Marine being from a desirable unit doesn't hurt, but it doesn't add a lot of value if the artwork isn't of significant interest or quality. The artwork on this is pretty typical and plain, and honestly I don't think the fact it belonged to a wounded Raider would raise the value significantly...seabags were garrison items that stayed on the ship during invasions and don't command nearly the prices of field gear.

 

The most likely situation this would be faked is if a Raider's name was added to a period unnamed seabag to try to squeeze a few extra bucks from the sale. In such a case, the wear to the paint would be inconsistent with the rest of the bag. The fact that a lot of paint remains doesn't mean a lot, plenty of awesome bags survived intact as the veterans who painted them often kept them inside a footlocker or chest rather than tossed into the garage.

 

 

I was also going to reference this thread, thank you brig.

[aznation]

2 hours ago, Gear Fanatic said:

Don’t get me wrong I see your point. But I don’t believe that is the case on this one. For one on the wear of the paint. The paint is fairly bright on the front and faded on the back, there are a ton of folds on it where you can see it was sitting for a long time and it was bleached on these folds and the folded parts retained color. This is also visible on the paint and you can see on the third MarDiv logo has folds where the paint is wearing off. Second, this was not bought from another collector or any sort of person who had much knowledge on this kind of thing. It was sitting in my friends grandmas neighbors garage and they are moving so she is cleaning out the garage and asked him if he knew anyone who liked military stuff. So he called me. I drove out about an hour to go get it from the home. I also posted the pictures that the neighbor took of it in the garage (they aren’t focused because they were selling the drill press in the corner) and third, with this being painted so late in this marines wartime service it would also make sense that there is not as much wear since it probably was used just on his way back stateside and then discarded. Also, if someone was going to fake a raider item why wouldn’t they paint the raider emblem instead of the 3rdmardiv. Emblem? That would garner more attention and be more appealing right? I am fully willing to entertain that viewpoint. But in my opinion I don’t believe that this is a humped up piece. I apologize for the long winded response, just want to clearly represent my stance. Thank you both for your comments.

 

Personally, I believe this sea bag is totally legit for all the reasons Gear Fanatic states.  There are many better ways to make this bag a highly desirable Raider item.  Just my opinion.

[dmar836]

Gear I like the bag as well.

To me the price on pays and where he gets it is a big tell as to authenticity. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of tribute pieces that fall into the mix BUT it does mean something was unlikely produced to sell for profit, at least the first time around. This is the danger of all the helmet and uniform "restorations". Sure, many will always appear poorly done but age will eventually make it quite difficult to tell exactly when something was made.

 

I also noticed the bike frame jig on the floor. Wish I knew you were going to see that before you went!

Dave

[Gear Fanatic]

2 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Gear I like the bag as well.

To me the price on pays and where he gets it is a big tell as to authenticity. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of tribute pieces that fall into the mix BUT it does mean something was unlikely produced to sell for profit, at least the first time around. This is the danger of all the helmet and uniform "restorations". Sure, many will always appear poorly done but age will eventually make it quite difficult to tell exactly when something was made.

 

I also noticed the bike frame jig on the floor. Wish I knew you were going to see that before you went!

Dave

Yah, the neighbors late husband was apparently big into MTB and made and welded his own frames. There was a lot of parts she was also trying to get rid of in large lots. I would’ve bought some of the parts but most of the stuff was pretty old and probably would not have worked on my current bike. 

[Gear Fanatic]

Now besides the discussion on whether it is good or not (which I am sure of). What would a price range look like for something like this? I honestly have no idea. I’ve seen some GI for 40-400 so where does this one land in your guys opinion? Thank you for all the comments everyone really appreciate it, always glad to have a good discussion.

[KurtA]

Given a consensus on originality can’t be reached (and can never be), the value range will be from $50 to whatever an 100% original with provenance goes for.  I can’t imagine someone offering you a “really nice trade” for something that “might” be ok, but then again may very well not be.  
But you like it and don’t plan to sell it, so all’s good.  

[Gear Fanatic]

Thank you for your input, and yes I plan on enjoying this piece for years to come so there really is no problem. The reason I ask this in the first place is just for documentation purposes. I have almost everything in my collection on a list with listed provenance, and what bin it’s in (if not displayed in my collection or somewhere else) plus an estimated price. And this is an Item I know could go either way so that is why I came here to get some other opinions to get an estimate other than my own.

[Blacksmith]

I’m with @KurtA, on the low end.  
 

Sorry, but just too many things that don’t make sense on this one - in my experience and opinion.  
 

I’ve spent many years collecting WWII USMC items, and have seen scores of marked-up seabags.  Everything from simple stenciled names / MCSNs to elaborate paintings, and this one isn’t convincing to me.  

 

“Hawaii” was painted on this bag at the same time Guadalcanal and the rest of the locations were.  To follow your (OP) hypothesis of a hospital paint job:

 

Where did he get all of the colors of paint?

 

Why the need to redact / repaint UNIS three times, as his unit would not have changed by then - and, he’d have been in ‘permanent’ possession of the bag at this point.  So why put an encrypted unit ID on it, when the 3rd MARDIV SSI is boldly emblazoned on it?

 

Why are there dark stains througout the bag - especially the bottom - but the paint is bright and fresh on top of the discoloration?

 

Why is the name applied in uncommn syntax to period USMC convention of first init, middle init, surname?

 

Again, all just my opinion.  

 

 

[ludwigh1980]

What bothers me is that it looks like each element was painted all at the same time. It has UNIS markings, it has a EGA and it has a "war diary" and each element would have been painted at a different time. Perhaps: Name first. Unis Marking perhaps second. Then an EGA and then maybe the islands or port of calls. To be all painted up at the same time just would not happen. It's like Vietnam graffiti covers having clear bold marking, names, sayings, place names all bold, sharp and the same gradients of color just would not happen unless the vet made it after the period of events. A helmet cover, faded, with some markings clearer than others, color bleeding, some "refreshed" , some so faint that they hard to read is what I would expect for a period used and applied piece and I would expect a seabag that followed a Marine through the pacific during WW2 to be similar. 

Just my thoughts. 

[Gear Fanatic]

thank you all who are in favor and have opposition toward the bag. I appreciate all the comments on whether real or not, having a good discussion is always great. I have faith in the item personally. For all the reasons explained above I believe it is good. especially with him being attached to this unit so late in the war to me that explains the clear paint. it sitting in a garage (in California, so mostly dry) for years on end and being covered in a fairly nice and non volatile climate. and not really being touched it makes it solid for me. there's definetly wear on it, it's just not beat to a pulp. it probably wasn't used for long and mostly stored and not being carried from place to place. definetly some good points made, but with it being divided It is a little dissapointing everyones so divided. either way, thanks all for the input. 

[Titanfan]

I'll add to the question of originality. Above you mentioned, "If someone was going to fake a raider item, why wouldn't they..." 

That is kind of the point, in itself. If you're going to fake anything WWII Marine Corps, it would definitely be a raider item.

For an advanced collector, solid provenance is required to bring any real money on an item like this. If there were other items from the vet, such as photos or dog tags, no one here would have a second thought as to originality. As it is, any interested party would have to judge for themselves.

[KurtA]

Good chance it’s what I guess they call a “tribute” item- painted decades after WW2 by the vet or family member.  Had all the different paint colors available and banged it out all in one shot.    

[Gear Fanatic]

52 minutes ago, Titanfan said:

I'll add to the question of originality. Above you mentioned, "If someone was going to fake a raider item, why wouldn't they..." 

That is kind of the point, in itself. If you're going to fake anything WWII Marine Corps, it would definitely be a raider item.

For an advanced collector, solid provenance is required to bring any real money on an item like this. If there were other items from the vet, such as photos or dog tags, no one here would have a second thought as to originality. As it is, any interested party would have to judge for themselves.

There was, I did not post them with this, but they were posted in the original post  in the latest finds section. I only posted the bag for that appraisal only.here are the items if that is what your looking for and adds to your opinion of original or not.

[UNIS_AW97]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the seabag. Plenty of well preserved examples out there in the same shape and condition. Not every single one got ran over by a tank and beat with a bat. I’ve seen seabags come from vet estates that are beautifully painted. Plus this bag came with more from the vet estate. 

[Blacksmith]

18 minutes ago, UNIS_AW97 said:

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the seabag. Plenty of well preserved examples out there in the same shape and condition. Not every single one got ran over by a tank and beat with a bat. I’ve seen seabags come from vet estates that are beautifully painted. Plus this bag came with more from the vet estate. 

Condition isn’t the issue, content and composition are.  
 

And it coming with other items from the veteran has zero bearing on originality.  
 

A local WWII PIR veteran had a mix of original and repro items in his estate - some of which was named / gifted to him by friends and family.  In particular was a jump jacket that he had made up to wear to events - patched-out with wings on it.  One of his friends gave him a better-quality repro German dagger, adding to the mix.

 

The only thing that makes an item original is originality.  Not how it came, not who it came from.

[UNIS_AW97]

50 minutes ago, Blacksmith said:

Condition isn’t the issue, content and composition are.  
 

And it coming with other items from the veteran has zero bearing on originality.  
 

A local WWII PIR veteran had a mix of original and repro items in his estate - some of which was named / gifted to him by friends and family.  In particular was a jump jacket that he had made up to wear to events - patched-out with wings on it.  One of his friends gave him a better-quality repro German dagger, adding to the mix.

 

The only thing that makes an item original is originality.  Not how it came, not who it came from.

Gonna disagree here. Especially since someone brought up the fact that since it didn’t come with more from the vet that it’s likely not legit. 
 

I picked up a HUGE 3rd Marine Division grouping in St.Louis a couple years back. Originally I was only picking up a wool USMC blanket and then they brought out the Marine’s UNIS marked pack, dog tags, medals, ribbons, etc. Other than those items, there was nothing else of his at all. In the end it wasn’t a HUGE grouping but it was most definitely legit. I managed to trace the vet back to living in St.Louis as well.  
 

There’s no reason to not believe a group like this. Especially since he has backed all the fact thrown against him. 
 

Your PIR story really doesn’t compare here in this case. PIR vets often have repro jump jackets for events made. That’s nothing new. What would be new is someone going through the trouble of painting a 3rd MarDiv seabag to lug around at events. I think people are far too scared of paint. 
 

People are quick to judge a seabag but would go nuts over a WWI painted gas mask bag 

[Blacksmith]

37 minutes ago, UNIS_AW97 said:

Gonna disagree here. Especially since someone brought up the fact that since it didn’t come with more from the vet that it’s likely not legit. 
 

I picked up a HUGE 3rd Marine Division grouping in St.Louis a couple years back. Originally I was only picking up a wool USMC blanket and then they brought out the Marine’s UNIS marked pack, dog tags, medals, ribbons, etc. Other than those items, there was nothing else of his at all. In the end it wasn’t a HUGE grouping but it was most definitely legit. I managed to trace the vet back to living in St.Louis as well.  
 

There’s no reason to not believe a group like this. Especially since he has backed all the fact thrown against him. 
 

Your PIR story really doesn’t compare here in this case. PIR vets often have repro jump jackets for events made. That’s nothing new. What would be new is someone going through the trouble of painting a 3rd MarDiv seabag to lug around at events. I think people are far too scared of paint. 
 

People are quick to judge a seabag but would go nuts over a WWI painted gas mask bag 

We have different opinions, that‘s cool.  I always welcome other viewpoints - we just don’t agree.  
 

I’m not going to play point / counterpoint, but there are oodles of “tribute” Raider stuff on eBay and elsewhere, so it’s not just PIR M42s.  
 

Maybe you’d jump on this at a show, where I wouldn’t give it a second look.  To each their own.  

[Gear Fanatic]

21 hours ago, UNIS_AW97 said:

Gonna disagree here. Especially since someone brought up the fact that since it didn’t come with more from the vet that it’s likely not legit. 
 

I picked up a HUGE 3rd Marine Division grouping in St.Louis a couple years back. Originally I was only picking up a wool USMC blanket and then they brought out the Marine’s UNIS marked pack, dog tags, medals, ribbons, etc. Other than those items, there was nothing else of his at all. In the end it wasn’t a HUGE grouping but it was most definitely legit. I managed to trace the vet back to living in St.Louis as well.  
 

There’s no reason to not believe a group like this. Especially since he has backed all the fact thrown against him. 
 

Your PIR story really doesn’t compare here in this case. PIR vets often have repro jump jackets for events made. That’s nothing new. What would be new is someone going through the trouble of painting a 3rd MarDiv seabag to lug around at events. I think people are far too scared of paint. 
 

People are quick to judge a seabag but would go nuts over a WWI painted gas mask bag 

Agreed to that point. Everything you supposedly have wrong with this I have explained and proven. As you said though, to each their own. If you don’t like it that’s fine. I’ve given all the information that justifies this piece.

[Blacksmith]

14 hours ago, Gear Fanatic said:

Agreed to that point. Everything you supposedly have wrong with this I have explained and proven. As you said though, to each their own. If you don’t like it that’s fine. I’ve given all the information that justifies this piece.

 

My apologies, I am not trying to 'dog pile' here, and it doesn't matter to me if this bag is real or fake / "tribute".  

 

But when you make a statement like "Everything you supposedly have wrong with this I have explained and proven" - respectfully, you haven't.

 

I'm going to move on after this, so will simplify to say that there is NO logic (in my mind) as to why:

• A bag that was painted in Hawaii - or after - would have UNIS markings on it, especially those that had been over-painted / redone
• Why one would use UNIS alongside unit insignia painted 'in the clear'
• Paint would be on top of all staining unless it was painted after it ceased use as a seabag 
• Name would be applied with initials at the end - Marines didn't use that, and what is generally practiced is init / init / surname

That it was found with other original items does not equal authentication, in the same way that original items found with fake stuff does not make all of it fake.

 

I understand why you would want it to be original.  We all like to believe that we pull plums out of the woodwork - though in so doing, it behooves us to maintain objectivity as much as humanly possible.

 

I have gotten myself stung a few times over the years, and each time it was because I refused to see warning signs.

 

Anyhow, as always, the above is solely my opinion.  Good luck and thank you for sharing your bag.  It's a neat piece no matter what.