WWI Robbins one piece wing screw post nuts

[Flightwings]

OK, so not sure what they are called, but was there standard type that was used (the round nut) on Robbins WWI style wings and are replacement originals easy to find? Just curious if this is known. Or, did the retailer use whatever they had? Any help appreciated.

 

Gerard

[cwnorma]

Gerard,

 

The jewelry industry term for these posts are, "button backs".  Each Button back consists of a "screw post" and a "screw back" and sometimes (like on the back of most WW1 collar disks) a "button back washer" that has small prongs to keep the item from rotating when worn:

 

https://products.us.wrcobb.com/product-category/jewelry-findings/button-backs-and-posts/view-all-button-backs-and-posts/

 

I find in practice most collectors call them "screw posts" and "nuts".

 

In my own case, if the only issue with a WW1 wing was its original nuts were missing--that would not keep me from the purchase.  

 

WW1 era screw backs are indeed somewhat different from modern ones.  The type of screw backs used on WW1 wings tended to be manufactured using sheet brass and in general are somewhat less robust than modern versions.  Below are some examples to compare

 

Here are some examples of the type most frequently used by Robbins:

 

 

Here are some used on wings made by Simmang:

 

 

Jewelry manufacturers did not generally make their own screw backs.  There were other specialty manufacturers that manufactured jewelry supplies (findings) and sold wholesale to jewelry makers.  The jewelers only thought when ordering such findings was function.  Additionally, the whole idea of "standard threading" was born during WW1.  The wartime mobilization revealed that something as simple as a lack of defined screw standards kept two manufacturers of the same item (i.e. 1917 rifles) from achieving full interchangeability of parts.  What this means in the context of WW1 wing badges is that one manufacturer's screw posts and screw backs would not necessarily fit those of another.  

 

Add to that the fact that screw backs were easily lost.  The difficulty finding a match (even in 1918!) may also have contributed to some wings we see today converted to pin back.

 

But, all hope is not lost!  Over the years, I have been able to find lose screw backs that are 1) period correct and 2) actually fit:  A friend had a small stash of the Robbins type and after some wheedling and needling was willing to sell me two for an orphaned wing.  I have have found others in "loose jewelery" boxes in antique stores.  Occasionally you can find old screw-back mens jewelry on sites like ebay and find a donor.  The key there is knowing what to look for.

 

So to explicitly answer your questions, there is a predominant style seen on Robbins made badges (shown above).  I would describe them as having a sort of mansard or pagoda roof like shape (you can kind of see that in the photos).  They are not "easy" to find in that there is no one I know of that specializes in selling them, but they can be found if you know what you are looking for and are patient.  

 

Warm regards.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[pfrost]

Haltom was another manufacturer that seemed to make wings with screw backs. As did the unknown maker of the so called “bat wings/Robbins-like type of badges. In my collection every single screw back wing was modified into a pin back conversion. At a rough count that’s 2 bat wingers, two Haltom's, and a Simmang wing. In fact I’m not sure I even have an original screw backs WWI wing.  My opinion is that original screw back wings were unpopular and it’s rare to find one that wasn’t converted, so are generally only seen as NOS that was never sold or worn 
 

The most common conversion shows that the screw post was cut off flush to the wing base and hinge and catch findings were added over the screw post stumps (for lack of a better word). I suspect that  the original manufacturer versions  of these companies used screw posts but at some stage they may have altered the construction process and made pin back versions (or offered this as an option).  Otherwise I believe the pilot just took it to a jeweler and had it modified there.  That means that you will find a variety of finding types.

 

like Chris said the loss of a fastener or even a period conversion to pin back is not a huge negative on these badges. I rather like the saltier worn versions myself.  Also like Chris said, vintage brass nut fasteners can periodically be found here and there. Unlike some of the foreign wings that used nut fasteners that can be diagnostic for a badge (say Polish badges) US wings don’t seem to follow any absolute universal rule — so to paraphrase OJ’s lawyer, “if it fits, it could be legit!”  Lol

 

frankly with all the other concerns about WWI wings, worrying about nuts is nuts…😛

 

you may have ignited another “polish or not” conflagration. Lol

 

[Bull Moose]

Several years ago I purchased 3 shoe boxes full of miscellaneous military medals, collar disks, insignia, etc. at an estate sale. Including this pile of “screw post nuts”.  If you (or Chris/Patrick) see any that seem appropriate for your wing let me know and we can work something out. 
 

 

[Flightwings]

"The Victory pat."?  Sorry for all the questions, I like to know a lot of details and I don't have a screw back. Led me to be curious about the exact ones they originally came with. Has anyone seen this one before? 

[cwnorma]

1 hour ago, Flightwings said:

"The Victory pat."?  Sorry for all the questions, I like to know a lot of details and I don't have a screw back. Led me to be curious about the exact ones they originally came with. Has anyone seen this one before? 

These are identical to those in post #2 above.  Same markings.

 

Warm regards.

 

Chris

[cwnorma]

7 minutes ago, cwnorma said:

These are identical to those in post #2 above.  Same markings.

 

Warm regards.

 

Chris

OK.  Not exactly identical.  The earlier version still bears the 1900 patent information.  That nomenclature was probably dropped in 1915.  In practice, Robbins would not have even noted the distinction.

 

Warm regards.  

 

Chris

[blind pew]

22 hours ago, cwnorma said:

Gerard,

 

The jewelry industry term for these posts are, "button backs".  Each Button back consists of a "screw post" and a "screw back" and sometimes (like on the back of most WW1 collar disks) a "button back washer" that has small prongs to keep the item from rotating when worn:

 

https://products.us.wrcobb.com/product-category/jewelry-findings/button-backs-and-posts/view-all-button-backs-and-posts/

 

I find in practice most collectors call them "screw posts" and "nuts".

 

In my own case, if the only issue with a WW1 wing was its original nuts were missing--that would not keep me from the purchase.  

 

WW1 era screw backs are indeed somewhat different from modern ones.  The type of screw backs used on WW1 wings tended to be manufactured using sheet brass and in general are somewhat less robust than modern versions.  Below are some examples to compare

 

Here are some examples of the type most frequently used by Robbins:

 

 

Here are some used on wings made by Simmang:

 

 

Jewelry manufacturers did not generally make their own screw backs.  There were other specialty manufacturers that manufactured jewelry supplies (findings) and sold wholesale to jewelry makers.  The jewelers only thought when ordering such findings was function.  Additionally, the whole idea of "standard threading" was born during WW1.  The wartime mobilization revealed that something as simple as a lack of defined screw standards kept two manufacturers of the same item (i.e. 1917 rifles) from achieving full interchangeability of parts.  What this means in the context of WW1 wing badges is that one manufacturer's screw posts and screw backs would not necessarily fit those of another.  

 

Add to that the fact that screw backs were easily lost.  The difficulty finding a match (even in 1918!) may also have contributed to some wings we see today converted to pin back.

 

But, all hope is not lost!  Over the years, I have been able to find lose screw backs that are 1) period correct and 2) actually fit:  A friend had a small stash of the Robbins type and after some wheedling and needling was willing to sell me two for an orphaned wing.  I have have found others in "loose jewelery" boxes in antique stores.  Occasionally you can find old screw-back mens jewelry on sites like ebay and find a donor.  The key there is knowing what to look for.

 

So to explicitly answer your questions, there is a predominant style seen on Robbins made badges (shown above).  I would describe them as having a sort of mansard or pagoda roof like shape (you can kind of see that in the photos).  They are not "easy" to find in that there is no one I know of that specializes in selling them, but they can be found if you know what you are looking for and are patient.  

 

Warm regards.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Chris-

 

Do you think that the “post and nut” configuration for attachment followed, preceded, or was concurrent with the pin/catch mechanism?

 

Was the type of attachment a choice for the buyer/wearer, or did were they simply made one way or another and you bought what was available? 
 

It seems the “post- nut” type wings would be a PITA to put on and off. Why would someone choose that over the “pin-catch” option? 

[cwnorma]

18 minutes ago, blind pew said:

Chris-

 

Do you think that the “post and nut” configuration for attachment followed, preceded, or was concurrent with the pin/catch mechanism?

 

Was the type of attachment a choice for the buyer/wearer, or did were they simply made one way or another and you bought what was available? 
 

It seems the “post- nut” type wings would be a PITA to put on and off. Why would someone choose that over the “pin-catch” option? 

Tom,

 

I've never seen any sort of correspondence on it but here is my best guess:  I think they were more or less contemporaneous.  The screw posts were likely an attempt to affix the badges more securely than a pin could.  

 

Recall, they actually wore those high-collar uniforms with all insignia under their flight suits--plus harnesses and equipment!  This was the entire reasoning for regulations stipulating bullion badges for Air Service (also the reason many Dallas wings are missing wing tips!).  Most available brooch pins at the time were not very strong.  Some companies like Noble compensated by making extremely robust pin sets.  The screw posts should be seen as another accommodation.

 

Judging by the relatively high number of badges found converted from screw back to pin back, another guess is that screw backs sounded like a good idea in theory, but in practice meant larger, permanent holes in the uniform, and having to keep track of the nuts.  As noted above, nuts were not interchangeable.  So if one or both were lost, the Aviator would have to go back to the original manufacturer to get replacements.

 

As Patrick noted, not all manufacturers seem to have offered screw backs.  However, more than one did.  The idea must have had some popularity.

 

Warm regards.

 

Chris

[blind pew]

Thanks for the information! 

[pfrost]

The use of screw-back posts was not uncommon in WWI.  The vast majority of hat badges and collar disks used in the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps used screw-back fasteners.  DUIs more often than not use screw backs.  You will sometimes see rank insignia with screw backs as well.  Some other types of badges (both military and non-military [e.g., police badges]) commonly use screw-back fasteners.  Broach-style findings were commonly used in jewelry, and since many manufacturers of WWI wings also sold jewelry, it was probably not a big issue either way. I would quibble that this was not a big technological advancement or marketing shift at the time.

 

In total, screw fasteners were not unique at all, and just about anyone in the military would have been familiar with them.  I have never tried, but I also suspect that in many cases, nuts for (say a cap badge) could have been used on a wing (and vice versa).  Even I have been known to take the nut off of a lesser bit of kit and put it on a more valuable bit... As I said... If it fits, may as well be legit!

 

Anecdotal evidence from WWII suggests that pin-backs were easier to pin on the breast of a uniform but hard to get on straight, while clutch-backs were even more efficient.-- especially getting a wing on straight.  It is my  humble opinion that the same process played out with screw posts vs brooch pins.

 

I also suspect that most people probably didn't think much about it once they unboxed a wing.  If they were happy with it, they used it as bought, if not, they got it altered by the nearest jeweler.  

 

Sometimes as collectors, we can overthink something.

 

P