WWII USAAF B-8 Goggles Mfg. Markings Question

[WarRelics]

After looking at various USAAF B 8 goggles I have a question about what is wartime and what is post war manufactures. Hopefully some of the USAAF collectors on here will weigh in here on this. In the order that the photos appear below:

Examples 1 and 2 appear to have wartime markings and are represented as made during the war.
Examples 3 and 4 have been represented as having post war markings being made then. 

My question is are examples 3 and 4 actually post war manufactured?

How many wartime manufacturers were there?

Thanks in advance for all responses. The photos posted are not mine.

[dmar836]

I'm not sure I ever really considered this. I would venture the guess that, just as with the Bancroft Flighter caps, the patent information printed on the part tends to signify post war production. I've not seen conclusive evidence of this - just what other collectors have said and through observation. I would assume the urgent nature of war production would obviate the need for patent process. Consider that war production was primarily contract work awarded to existing production plants rather than individuals seeking protection of their inventions from competition. Also, consider that most "inventions" were typically by agencies of the govt like those doing research and development at Wright Field or Bureau of Aeronautics.

This is all just spit balling as I have no actual knowledge. 

Dave

[WarRelics]

Thanks for your input Dave. I don’t have any reference books that provide an answer for my question. I have researched the markings on line without success. There are wartime B 8’s marked as “property of the AF US Army” as witnessed in the photos in examples 1 and 2. I thought examples 3 and 4 could be late war but could just as easily be post war too since the US Army Air Force existed until 1947 when it was reformed as the US Air Force. I imagine that researching the patent  holds the answer to the mystery. I feel certain that a date is attached to it that would provide an answer. Maybe another member has more information and will weigh in.

Thanks again.

Bruce

[WarRelics]

After looking at the two different B 8 makers markings 1 and 2 are from Rochester Optical while 3 and 4 are from Polaroid Optical, which might explain why they are different. I think that the possibility is real that they both are wartime manufactured but by the same token I could be completely wrong about 3 and 4. Hopefully someone with experience with these weighs in. I cross posted this to the Facebook page and the responses I received were that they are from WWII pointing to them having AAF in the markings. A seller had a pair of Polaroid marked B 8’s like 3 and 4 listed as being post war versions but that’s not a guarantee that they are. Sellers like the rest of us get it wrong on occasion. If someone has a definitive answer it would be greatly appreciated.

[phantomfixer]

They all should be dated on the rubber frame near the straps, one side should be US the other side should have the date

[WarRelics]

Okay thanks for that information. That should give a definitive answer to my question. Thanks again.

[dmar836]

I thought that was just for the M1944 dust goggles and not the B-8s.

Dave

[phantomfixer]

5 hours ago, dmar836 said:

I thought that was just for the M1944 dust goggles and not the B-8s.

Dave

You are correct Dave, my bad… the B8s are not dated…

[WarRelics]

Thanks for your help guys. In looking through old posts with photos a set of Polaroid B 8’s from 2013 has the same trademark as this one and is attributed as being wartime. If you need me to attach it for review I’ll find it again and repost it. I think it essentially answers my question unless more recent information has made that post invalid. Thanks again for your help. 

[WarRelics]

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/188552-wwii-usaaf-headgear/

 

This should be the post I’m referring to from 2013. Thanks again.

[dmar836]

Apologies for another typically long post. It's how I think things out.

I don't really see anything in that really great thread that would indicate the T.M.-marked B-8s are wartime more than not if that's what you are led to believe. No offense but actually nothing at all.

Anecdotal evidence from one source:

I have these two pair of B-8s and one M1944:

Both B-8s are from Rochester Optical(no unique font or symbols in that name), neither pair having T.M. markings but both from the same 1945 contract. One has a penciled name on the box but no rank or other evidence of being a wartime marking(but I suspect it is). There is no T.M. info on the goggles, boxes, or included paperwork/instructions.

 

The M1944 goggles in the upper right:

 

 

I have seen these dated into the 1980s but these 1944 dated goggles do have T.M. info and are also clearly wartime made. They are by Polaroid which, incidentally, has a distinct symbol in it's name. 

I'm not trying to split hairs here but rather rejoin them. Based on other wartime items, such as the O2 masks, microphones, clothing, etc. the contractor name and wartime contract info are commonly present whereas patent and TM markings are certainly not the norm... from what I've observed. I know some G.E. heated clothing items(boxes) have patent numbers, and a few others, but by and large I see no T.M. or patent office markings as proof of wartime mfg or post war mfg. The makers with unique names or marks appear to be those with T.M. As stated I have plenty of examples of items with and without - each with additional evidence of wartime mfg.  

I suspect the reason "patent" shows up on some items DURING the war, for example on some officer caps, is that there were many items supplemented by the "private market" that had distinguishing characteristics differing from the functional characteristics of an item(patent speak). The Flighter by Bancroft cap appears to be a glaring example of a non-issued item with differentiating characteristics from other functional officer caps and thus a patent applied for. Could also be just because of the Bancroft script or Flighter name.

A T.M. could be for a unique mark, symbol, or font in the mfg name as in Bancroft, Polaroid, and GE rather than the item itself. Both of those companies had enough pre-war presence to T.M. their brand even on contract goods. Protecting their iconic names was likely more the case than any intellectual property of items they did not actually invent. That's just an assumption but others, like Rochester, made the same items with no T.M. markings. Your posted pics exemplify this every bit as much as what I have posted but comparisons within contexts is a great way to develop defensible opinions IMO. 

TLDR version? I'm guessing any of the goggles shown on this thread so far are likely wartime. With the surplus of these found on the salt flats and drag races of the 50s I have serious doubts if those seen in early jet pilot pictures are anything but WWII mfg. For one to be and one to not be WWII based on T.M. would mean all the other items would be put into one of two camps. My smallish collection would not support that at all! Hopefully someone has a documented pair of 43/44-made B-8s by Rochester with T.M. markings or earlier dated Polaroids without it. That would mix it all up!

Dave   

Sorry for ranting on but this has added rationale to the topic for me.

[WarRelics]

I’m fine with your rant Dave. There’s no way that we can learn if we agree all the time and never dig deeper for a definitive answer to a question. Those answers can be elusive at times. I know that you have been collecting for quite a while and I greatly respect your opinions. My reason for questioning whether the Polaroid Optical B 8’s are wartime came from a listing where the seller titled a set as being postwar. That set me to wondering if they were right, which prompted my post. Strictly speaking about B 8 goggles I agree with your belief that the Rochester Optical B 8’s were probably made under a contract and the patent wasn’t theirs thus their trademark while the Polaroid Optical B 8’s were thus the difference. It looks to me that both have been accepted as having been made during the war here for a while or at least that assertion hasn’t been challenged. It’s clear that the 1065’s are definitely wartime. If the patent office records or the quarter masters office records from the war could be researched there’s a chance they might produce some sort of evidence for an answer. The thing I’ve learned from my experience on the forum is that old topics recycle and new information sometimes comes out. I hope I haven’t rambled too much! Thanks again to you and phantomfixer for your patience and input.

Regards,
Bruce

[WarRelics]

I found this thread from July 13, 2013 that discusses 1065’s, B 8’s, M 1944’s and the combinations. At the heart of it is that they should have a date stamp on the side under the strap BUT there appear to be exceptions so it’s somewhat helpful. Passing it on for information purposes.