Opinions please!!! One bronze and the other gilt. 1901-1905

[Retired Army Noncom]

Two sets of signal flags, one bronze and one gilt. Notice the flags have the same insert flags markings, both are screw back. Are they same time frame, gilt for a dress cap and the bronze on a service cap.

 

Thanks.............

 

 

 

 

 

[Salvage Sailor]

 

“The Collar Disk Story” by Albert Scipio. (which also pertains to bronze vs. gilt insignia)

History: (Reference Scipio, The Collar Disk Story (1907-1999) pgs 13 – 44)

 

The first collar disks were one inch in diameter with raised edge, a threaded post and thumbscrew nut for attachment. They were made of solid, dark finished copper with a color range from true bronze to a blackish-brown.

 

It was commonly held that gilt disks came into existence in 1921 as part of a series of changes to enlisted men collar insignia. Several of the changes were due to AR600-35, 14 October 1921, which directed in Section III that:

 

Except as otherwise prescribed, metal insignia for wear on uniform clothing will be of two kinds:

1. Bronze
2. Gold or gilt medal

The bronze insignia is for wear on the service uniform, the gold or gilt insignia for wear on the white uniform.

 

But the gilt disk goes back farther than that. The first evidence of a gilt disk, at least one authorized, is that specified in War Department Specifications Number 1074 of 1910 for the Service School and West Point Detachment. Two other gilt disks are known to have been authorized prior to the 1921 regulation, the Air Service Type II disk and a device designed for the United States Guards of 1918.

 

In 1907, the regiment number existed on the branch device. In 1917, the regimental number was moved to the “US” device. In 1941, company designation was removed from branch device. In 1947, regimental number was removed from the “US” device. In 1958, regimental number placed above branch device. In 1968, regimental number above branch device and battalion number below.

 

Background Pattern Change:

 

The reason for changing the disk background is not clear, particularly the selection of a more intricate pattern. There were 6 different background styles:

• Smooth – without pattern
• Dot – rounded raised dots, regularly arranged
• Pebble – raised irregular bumps of triangular sizes, randomly arranged
• Cross-hatch – raised lines intersecting to from diamond shapes
• Horizontal diamond – raised diamonds with long axis horizontal, regularly arranged
• Vertical diamond – raised diamonds with long axis vertical, regularly shaped

 

Fastening Techniques:

1. Screw post – The screw post fastener consisted basically of a threaded post and a thumbscrew nut. The post was attached to the back of the insignia and held to the uniform by a nut of similar locking device. This method was first utilized on US insignia around 1896 and predominantly on hat badges, became the standard fastener system for collar disks when adopted in 1907. While the screw post had several advantages as an attachment, it was unpopular because it required that a hole be cut in the uniform for insertion of the post.
2. Pin latch – The pin latch system, introduced around 1876, was used until 1896 on hat and cap insignia and from 1895 to 1926 on officer’s collar insignia. Earlier versions of this attachment method consisted of a thin pin attached to the back of the insignia with a simple loop at the far end of to secure the pin. Later versions, after 1916, had a safety latch to secure the pin and prevent it from coming undone. This type of fastener was discarded when AR600-25, 31 December 1926, authorized only small screw back or clutch.
3. Clutch fastener – This method began with the Type III disks

 

After two decades of use, bronze insignia came to an end. On 25 November 1924, AR 600-35 eliminated all bronze insignia from the uniform. All future metal insignia for wear on uniform clothing would be of gold, gilt, or gilding. However, the regulations permitted continued use of serviceable bronze insignia on hand provided the bronze finish was removed and the metal polished. Quite naturally, manufacturers took full advantage of the latitude and removed the bronze finish from stock items, including long obsolete types, which explains the existence of gilt like designs which were supposedly made only in bronze.

[Retired Army Noncom]

30 minutes ago, Salvage Sailor said:

 

“The Collar Disk Story” by Albert Scipio. (which also pertains to bronze vs. gilt insignia)

History: (Reference Scipio, The Collar Disk Story (1907-1999) pgs 13 – 44)

 

The first collar disks were one inch in diameter with raised edge, a threaded post and thumbscrew nut for attachment. They were made of solid, dark finished copper with a color range from true bronze to a blackish-brown.

 

It was commonly held that gilt disks came into existence in 1921 as part of a series of changes to enlisted men collar insignia. Several of the changes were due to AR600-35, 14 October 1921, which directed in Section III that:

 

Except as otherwise prescribed, metal insignia for wear on uniform clothing will be of two kinds:

1. Bronze
2. Gold or gilt medal

The bronze insignia is for wear on the service uniform, the gold or gilt insignia for wear on the white uniform.

 

But the gilt disk goes back farther than that. The first evidence of a gilt disk, at least one authorized, is that specified in War Department Specifications Number 1074 of 1910 for the Service School and West Point Detachment. Two other gilt disks are known to have been authorized prior to the 1921 regulation, the Air Service Type II disk and a device designed for the United States Guards of 1918.

 

In 1907, the regiment number existed on the branch device. In 1917, the regimental number was moved to the “US” device. In 1941, company designation was removed from branch device. In 1947, regimental number was removed from the “US” device. In 1958, regimental number placed above branch device. In 1968, regimental number above branch device and battalion number below.

 

Background Pattern Change:

 

The reason for changing the disk background is not clear, particularly the selection of a more intricate pattern. There were 6 different background styles:

• Smooth – without pattern
• Dot – rounded raised dots, regularly arranged
• Pebble – raised irregular bumps of triangular sizes, randomly arranged
• Cross-hatch – raised lines intersecting to from diamond shapes
• Horizontal diamond – raised diamonds with long axis horizontal, regularly arranged
• Vertical diamond – raised diamonds with long axis vertical, regularly shaped

 

Fastening Techniques:

1. Screw post – The screw post fastener consisted basically of a threaded post and a thumbscrew nut. The post was attached to the back of the insignia and held to the uniform by a nut of similar locking device. This method was first utilized on US insignia around 1896 and predominantly on hat badges, became the standard fastener system for collar disks when adopted in 1907. While the screw post had several advantages as an attachment, it was unpopular because it required that a hole be cut in the uniform for insertion of the post.
2. Pin latch – The pin latch system, introduced around 1876, was used until 1896 on hat and cap insignia and from 1895 to 1926 on officer’s collar insignia. Earlier versions of this attachment method consisted of a thin pin attached to the back of the insignia with a simple loop at the far end of to secure the pin. Later versions, after 1916, had a safety latch to secure the pin and prevent it from coming undone. This type of fastener was discarded when AR600-25, 31 December 1926, authorized only small screw back or clutch.
3. Clutch fastener – This method began with the Type III disks

 

After two decades of use, bronze insignia came to an end. On 25 November 1924, AR 600-35 eliminated all bronze insignia from the uniform. All future metal insignia for wear on uniform clothing would be of gold, gilt, or gilding. However, the regulations permitted continued use of serviceable bronze insignia on hand provided the bronze finish was removed and the metal polished. Quite naturally, manufacturers took full advantage of the latitude and removed the bronze finish from stock items, including long obsolete types, which explains the existence of gilt like designs which were supposedly made only in bronze.

There are no disks involved with what I posted above. These are enlisted signal flags used during the time of 1901-1905  for the M1902 dress hat and the M1905 service cap respectable. I need some confirmation as what I ask is so. 

[Retired Army Noncom]

3 minutes ago, Retired Army Noncom said:

There are no disks involved with what I posted above. These are enlisted signal flags used during the time of 1901-1905  for the M1902 dress hat and the M1905 service cap respectable. I need some confirmation as what I ask is so. 

 

CAC1901

 

"1901 the wreath was omitted for privates. Just the silver device.

1902 regs the privates cap device changed to gilt."

 

 

"Lots of back and forth going on there in a short while! Given that the QM had to catch up with the regs, get them made, & distribute them, signal corpsmen probably wore a nice variety of devices for the next decade". 

 

Maybe I should not have started a new thread.

[CAC1901]

This is as good a place to post no need to start a new thread.

 

The bronzed device shown on the WW1 enlisted visor hat (Fitzkee Militarias) looks to be the correct type; pre-WW1 to 1917 

 

The gilt device you posted appears to be a later one, probably from 1920's to WW2. Hard to date it without seeing the post and nut and if it has the anti-rotation pin. 

I mentioned that the 1902 uniform regs designate the privates signal corps cap device to be gilt for the dress cap. However most of the 1902 type cap devices that exist and turn up are the white metal i.e. silver type.  I suspect the gilt ones were made only in small numbers.  There may have been an excess of the silver ones on hand and so there was no need to let on contracts for gilt ones.  Also these gilt or silver devices were only for the regular army dress cap. In the decade leading up to WW1 soldiers were increasingly wearing field / service uniforms for day to day duties and the frequency or use of the dress uniform was receding. 

 

One thing about the signal corps too. At the turn of the century the branch was very small and existed as companies. By WW1 it had morphed into a major branch of service and of course grew even further into WW2. The amount of existing signal corps devices and insignia across that half century is staggering and since the basic design did not change it can be a bit challenging to discern differences between pre-WW1, WW1, and post WW1 devices. 

[Retired Army Noncom]

19 minutes ago, CAC1901 said:

This is as good a place to post no need to start a new thread.

 

The bronzed device shown on the WW1 enlisted visor hat (Fitzkee Militarias) looks to be the correct type; pre-WW1 to 1917 

 

 

Thanks for your reply...I'm not interested further purchasing Signal Corps items, ie, the M-1905 I posted above with the proper device but rather I'd like to find the proper device for the M1902 Signal Corps dress cap that is coming. Thought maybe what I had found would suffice but not to be so I will continue on down the road searching. Mind this thread, I'm sure I'll return for further expertise advice again. Thanks

[CAC1901]

21 minutes ago, Retired Army Noncom said:

Thanks for your reply...I'm not interested further purchasing Signal Corps items, ie, the M-1905 I posted above with the proper device but rather I'd like to find the proper device for the M1902 Signal Corps dress cap that is coming. Thought maybe what I had found would suffice but not to be so I will continue on down the road searching. Mind this thread, I'm sure I'll return for further expertise advice again. Thanks

Pretty straightforward. Just stick with a silver or gilt privates device with the screw post back. Or an NCO device: gilt wreath with silver or gilt flags/torch inlay and the screwpost back. 

[Retired Army Noncom]

On 12/20/2025 at 1:08 PM, CAC1901 said:

 

 

The bronzed device shown on the WW1 enlisted visor hat (Fitzkee Militarias) looks to be the correct type; pre-WW1 to 1917 

 

 

I ended up buying it anyway...........to put the bronze NCO device on I have now.

[Retired Army Noncom]

1 hour ago, Retired Army Noncom said:

I ended up buying it anyway...........to put the bronze NCO device on I have now.

You might say, I promoted the private who once wore it......😁

[Retired Army Noncom]

 

 

 

 

[CAC1901]

Looks great!