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Officer's Overcoat w/ Hood (c. 1907), Lt Col


19delta-uav
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19delta-uav

Hey Gents Figured I would add another one of my girlfriend's finds to the forum. This is apparently a WWI era overcoat. I don't know a lot about these as this is the first one that I have owned. Were hoods common on these? It looks like 4 pinstripes, what rank would that be? Also does anyone know an era in which these were used? thanks for the info.

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I'm looking at this on my Treo phone so the photos are not huge, but it looks like something from West Point or a private military school.

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From the few of these I have seen, it looks right to me -- remember, these weren't issued but were private purchase.

 

Do I assume correctly the hood is detachable?

 

G

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19delta-uav

The pictures were sent to me in Iraq of what my girlfriend has picked up for my collection, so I can't quite tell if it is detachable or not. She says thought it is in great condition with only one small place by the neck which became unstitched, thats an easy fix. Also it is missing 2-3 buttons. I don't know if those will be hard to find or not. When I get back I have a button laday at a flea market I can hit up. So the General thought is that this is a WWI officers jacket and not a mililtary school or anything like that? Any better expansion on what period this might have been used? I will find out about the hood being detachable or not as I have never seen a military overcoat with a hood on it before

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We were enlighted by a Forum member recently. Sarge Booker (hhbooker2) He posted the 1917 USA Facts and Figures booklet. You can search the forum and find this. I really appreciate his posts.

 

If that Coat has 4 bands its a Lt Colonel if its 3 its a Majors. (my eyes can't quite make out which it is,, I'm old and wear tri-focals.)

 

Attached is page 63 from that booklet showing that is US Army from WW1. Hope this helps.

 

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Jon B

Newaygo Mi

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19delta-uav

Jon,

Thank you very much for bring that information my attention. Looking closer on the bigger pictures I have in my E-mail, I am certain that it has 4 stripes which would make it a LT. Colonel's jacket. i will have to look closer for a name When I get back. I see the name Rocco on there but who knows if thats some kid who wore it to school in the 50s. This could be a great jacket to research. She said she thought she saw the name of a captain in there somewhere, but she wasn't sure. We sure will see. Other than that sadly there are no other tags in the jacket.

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19delta-uav

Talking to a friend he told me $60 was a little on the expensive side to pay for this jacket because of the 2 missing buttons and the small seam separation at the neck. What do you think?

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Talking to a friend he told me $60 was a little on the expensive side to pay for this jacket because of the 2 missing buttons and the small seam separation at the neck. What do you think?

 

I would say your friend is jealous. These overcoats with the old style rank sleeve brading are very hard to find. The seam separation can be easily repaired, and even if you never find the buttons, it's still a rare coat.

Hmmmm, that's quite a girlfriend you have there....

 

Steve

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19delta-uav

I have only seen one or two in my 12 some years of collecting thats why I turned to the experts when it came time for information. Thank you for all of your comments so far. I talked to my girlfriend and she said that the Hood is in fact detachable. She also said that there is a name in the hood. CPT. JD Carcia, Cancia, or Garcia. I have posted the picture of the name. What do you guys think it is? How would one go about finding information on a LT. Col. JD Carcia, Garcia, Or Cancia? The jacket was found in the maryland/pennsylvania area if that helps narrow it down at all.

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Pointedcuffs

Nice coat! In my collecting I have only come across a handful of these officer overcoats. My observation of these officer overcoats as well as research shows that coats 1902- 1905/06 were made with five pairs of vegetable ivory/horn buttons. Enlistedmens overcoat buttons were the same and changed to bronze in 1905 in which I have seen two officers overcoats that were changed over to bronze as well. I think somewhere between 1908 and 1910 the overcoats were changed to four pairs of bronze buttons. I have seen many WW1 period photographs where the officers are still wearing the early five pair button overcoat. It is my opinion the officer just kept the same coat over the years and just had the cuff braid changed, therefore that was the reason you see officers wearing both styles. So with that said I believe you have a early pattern officers overcoat 1902-1908? As far as the price goes I think you got a great deal. I paid $75 for one exactly the same but without the hood and that was ten years ago. Again I am just a small time collector so if someone else has information please share it.

 

Mario

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world war I nerd

It appears that you have a 1907 Officer's Overcoat. This style of overcoat was worn by commissioned officers through WW I. the 1907 overcoat was a modified version of the 1902 overcoat, both of which featured a detachable hood. The 1912 Uniform Regulations omitted the detachable hood as well as the dull bronze, pin back, arm of service devices that were pinned below the rank knot on each sleeve.

 

Most officers of the A.E.F. arrived in Europe in possession of a 1902 or 1907 pattern Officer’s Overcoat with cuff braid. Initially these were worn in the field until it became apparent that the coats overall length and bulk were not suited for use in the field and the black cuff braid attracted the unwanted attention of German snipers. After which metal rank insignia was pinned onto the shoulders and the cuff braid was sometimes removed. But in most cases the officers replaced the long overcoat altogether with a warm hip length Mackinaw type coat or the ubiquitous khaki cotton raincoat known as a “trench coat” that was popular among British officers.

 

Photo no. 01: This photo shows the typical regulation 1907 Officer’s Overcoat. This example has the cuff braid of a full colonel. Note the coat’s long length and the tab under the right hand side of the collar that fastened to a button on the left hand side to seal the opening when the collar was turned up.

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world war I nerd

Photo no. 02: Officers were allowed a certain amount of leeway when it came to their clothing and many pushed the limits of the uniform regulations to the limit when it came to matters of personal style and comfort. This colonel circa 1917 is wearing a shortened mackinaw style overcoat with a roll collar.

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world war I nerd

Photo no. 03: Here two decorated officers who served with the 93rd Infantry Division, recently returned to the U.S., both wear the 1907 Officer’s Overcoat, one with the cuff braid and the other without. In the trenches the long heavy overcoats often hampered the movement of the officer’s who wore them and the black cuff braid became a sign to enemy snipers that the wearer was an officer, making him a priority target. Because of this many line officers abandoned their heavy tailor made coats and cuff braid for a more practical garment better suited for the trenches or at the very least, opted for a overcoat without the cuff braid, so as not to stand out among the enlisted men.

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world war I nerd

Photo no. 04: The majority of officers overcoats were privately purchased or tailor made and as a result there are many minor variations in their quality, fabric, pattern, design and detail. Here on two generals of the 27th Division returning to the U.S. Both have two black bands of black mohair braid circling the cuff denoting the rank of a general officer. The general’s rank was further indicated by one to four stars embroidered in between the two bands of braid.

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world war I nerd

Photo no. 06: This reconstruction shows a recently promoted major wearing a 1907 coat with three rows of braid. If the braid is examined closely it becomes clear that his coat was initially made when he was a captain as the first two rows of braid match and the third row is different, indicating that it was added after he was appointed a major.

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world war I nerd

Photo no. 07: this close up of the cuff braid clearly shows the two different types of cuff braid used on the coat. The outside row appears to be narrower in size and lighter in color than the original braid. Apparently it was not uncommon for officer to add rows of cuff braid to the sleeves of their existing coat, when promoted, rather than purchase a new one. A medical officer serving at Evacuation Hospital No. 2 in France who could not afford a new overcoat when he was promoted to a 1st lieutenant noted doing the exact opposite by removing two rows of cuff braid from an overcoat that was donated to him by a charitable major,

 

“A major gave me his overcoat. Had braid changed looks quite chic.”

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19delta-uav

WOW that was very informative, Thank you very much for that World War I Nerd. I would have never had any idea. I am very interested at this point to figure out who exactly owned this jacket. Is there any resources that I check from here in Iraq on a CPT. JD Garcia, Cancia, or Carcia? Any oppionons on the name based on the photo?

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I'm not at home right now but your coat looks the same as the one I have. Even the sleeve stripes. But the hood is a BIG plus. I never knew they were equiped with a hood. The things a person learns here. Stay safe. Robert

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world war I nerd

Although this is an enlisted man's overcoat, other than the turn back cuffs, the basic configuration of the coat and the hood is the same. The detachable hood is secured to the coat by five small sized bronze eagle buttons under the collar. Note the curve to the front opening and the half belt at the rear waist.

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Pointedcuffs

world war I nerd,

 

What is the difference between the 1902 overcoat and the 1907 overcoat?

 

Mario

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world war I nerd

Mario,

 

Sorry Mario, but the farther we get away from WW I the less I know! I'll have to do some digging on that one but cannot guarentee any results. I know I've come across the differences before and I don't think they were significant but someone armed with better information and a better brain may prove me wrong. I'll post what I can find out but in the meantime.

 

Does anybody out there (New Romantic, Gil S) know exactly what the differences between the 1902 and 1907 Overcoats for officers and enlisted men were?

 

 

That would be a great topic for a future forum post! Hmmm...

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New Romantic

WWI Nerd just emailed me last night about the overcoats and I think it's best that any further information be confined to a 1902-1918 overcoats topic.

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