Collar Disk Anomaly

[atb]

Here is a Coast Artillery disk, the crossed guns set high on the disk. What puzzles me are the placement and unit ID indicated by the "9" and *"HQ." 

 

[CinamonToastCrunch]

9th Field Artillery, Headquarters Battery

[atb]

14 minutes ago, CinamonToastCrunch said:

9th Field Artillery, Headquarters Battery

My first thought was that, too. On a Coast Artillery disk? 

[Siamundo]

I agree with CinamonToastCrunch, Field Artillery. Coastal Artillery insignia usually has the addition of an oval in the center with a projectile inside. Here are a couple of just random screen shots I pulled off the internet-including one previously posted in another thread on this site by kiaiokalewa back in 2007

 

[atb]

The first pattern disk adopted for the Coast Artillery companies were crossed gun tubes set high on the disk. The company letter was below the guns. Field artillery disks had the guns centered on the disk with regiment number above and battery letter below the crossed guns. The design with the shell/oval was adopted in, I think, 1918.

[Siamundo]

Ahh. WW I collar discs are not my forte, so to speak, so I am not familiar with all their minor nuances. Thank you for the information.

[QED4]

On 8/19/2025 at 8:06 PM, atb said:

The first pattern disk adopted for the Coast Artillery companies were crossed gun tubes set high on the disk. The company letter was below the guns. Field artillery disks had the guns centered on the disk with regiment number above and battery letter below the crossed guns. The design with the shell/oval was adopted in, I think, 1918.

The early Coast Artillery discs indeed had the crossed canons set high but had the company number below. The basic formation for CAC was the company they did not have regiments or battalions at the time and they were numbered through out the CAC and they were called companies not batteries. They became batteries when it was reorganized with regiments and battalions. I think your disc is the HQ Battery of the 9th Field Artillery, the canons were just set hight make room for the two letter HQ rather than the single letter battery. Also early on the Regt, number was below the US and the battery letter was below the canons it wasn't until later, after the reorganization, that the shell was added to the CAC insignia that they changed it to Regt above and company/battery below. 

[atb]

1 hour ago, QED4 said:

The early Coast Artillery discs indeed had the crossed canons set high but had the company number below. The basic formation for CAC was the company they did not have regiments or battalions at the time and they were numbered through out the CAC and they were called companies not batteries. They became batteries when it was reorganized with regiments and battalions. I think your disc is the HQ Battery of the 9th Field Artillery, the canons were just set hight make room for the two letter HQ rather than the single letter battery. Also early on the Regt, number was below the US and the battery letter was below the canons it wasn't until later, after the reorganization, that the shell was added to the CAC insignia that they changed it to Regt above and company/battery below. 

Yes, I am aware of all that you say.

It's the high set cannons that puzzle me. All the other Field Artillery disks I have whether with battery letter below the guns, or regiment number and battery letter (including HQ) have the normal centered crossed tubes. This disk is on a WW1 coat with a Railway Artillery SSI.

[atb]

Maybe just a maker's variation.

[unclegrumpy]

4 hours ago, atb said:

Maybe just a maker's variation.

 

That is what I think it is as well.  

 

In actuality, it is probably an error, where the manufacturer should have used the die with the centered field artillery cannons...but didn't.  Maybe nobody cared or noticed, likely because it was made close to the time they dropped the numbers from the discs, because the numbers became too hard to keep up with all of the various unit number and letter  combinations as the Army expanded.

[unclegrumpy]

Thinking a little more about this and wondering if the Railway Artillery SSI was a clue.  Thinking maybe the high cannons were correct given the Railway Artillery was part of the Coast Artillery.

 

However, from the internet:

 

A search for the "9th Battery" of U.S. Army railway artillery in World War I primarily yields information on units from the Coast Artillery Corps (CAC) and US Navy, not a single Army unit. The 9th Field Artillery and 9th Coast Artillery existed during and after WWI, but there is no specific WWI record of a "9th Battery" operating US Army railway guns

 

And:

 

WWI CAC and railway guns: The CAC was responsible for heavy, long-range artillery, including railway guns. The 52nd and 59th CAC Regiments famously operated French-supplied railway artillery in France.

 

I am not sure where this leaves this.  There are a lot of odd ball and non standard WW I numbered discs.   Some are easier than others to sort the exact unit out.  This one is a nice original disc, but exactly the unit it represents is hard to say.  I suspect there is someone that has done a deeper dive into the WW I Army organizational chart and probably knows. 

[atb]

1 hour ago, unclegrumpy said:

Thinking a little more about this and wondering if the Railway Artillery SSI was a clue.  Thinking maybe the high cannons were correct given the Railway Artillery was part of the Coast Artillery.

 

However, from the internet:

 

A search for the "9th Battery" of U.S. Army railway artillery in World War I primarily yields information on units from the Coast Artillery Corps (CAC) and US Navy, not a single Army unit. The 9th Field Artillery and 9th Coast Artillery existed during and after WWI, but there is no specific WWI record of a "9th Battery" operating US Army railway guns

 

And:

 

WWI CAC and railway guns: The CAC was responsible for heavy, long-range artillery, including railway guns. The 52nd and 59th CAC Regiments famously operated French-supplied railway artillery in France.

 

I am not sure where this leaves this.  There are a lot of odd ball and non standard WW I numbered discs.   Some are easier than others to sort the exact unit out.  This one is a nice original disc, but exactly the unit it represents is hard to say.  I suspect there is someone that has done a deeper dive into the WW I Army organizational chart and probably knows. 

There were several 9th Companies within all the various Coast Defense Commands. One 9th Company did become part of a battery in the 54th Artillery, Coast Artillery Corps when the regiments were formed for overseas service in WW1. Still doesnt explain the disk in conjunction woth that SSI. There's no other insignia other than a US disk on the coat. It could be that both were simply added to the coat by someone.

[Remark]

I am voting this is a field artillery unit.  I have several of the coastal high set cannon disks and I don't ever recall them having any designation in the top field.  I would guess the unit or soldier got the coastal artillery disk, maybe at a jeweler or other vender, and had it modified to fit their unit.  

 

However I do have a coastal artillery disk with the shell in the center that has a 6 in the upper field.

[atb]

The 9th Field Artillery has no relation to the Railway Artillery. It could be I have three separate things that were put together for whatever reason- a WW1 coat, a pair of disks, and a First Army Railway Artillery SSI. I believe the value of the SSI more than equals what have into the thing. I've posted the SSI in two other places in the forum.

 

[unclegrumpy]

The Coast Artillery went through a number of reorganizations from 1901 through 1924.  

 

The 9th Company in 1907 when they started wearing the collar discs would have used the high cannon disc with #9 below.  The 170 Companies in that period were part of Coast Artillery Districts 

 

The 9th Companies after 1918 would have used the CAC insignia with the projectile in the center.

 

The Coast Artillery Regiments had the numbers above the CAC insignia with the projectile in the center.  The 54th CAC would be an example.

 

You should post a picture of the uniform.  Maybe you are correct....and the answer is someone added the insignia.  I also feel as I previously mentioned, that this disc is variant Field Artillery disc.

 

Below is the 9th CAC Company as it evolved:   

 

9th Company (L/1st Artillery)

 

1901 – Fort Barrancas, FL

1907 – Fort Warren, MA

1909 – Mine company

1916 – 1st Company, Fort Warren, MA

1917 – 7th Company, CD Boston

1921 – 11th Company, CD Long Island Sound

1921 – HQ/2nd AA Battalion, CAC

1922 – 9th Company, CAC (additional designation)

1924 – HQ/62nd CA Regiment (AA), Fort Totten

[unclegrumpy]

23 minutes ago, Remark said:

I do have a coastal artillery disk with the shell in the center that has a 6 in the upper field.

 

This one would be from the 6th Regiment after WW I

[atb]

Here is the coat with collar disks and Railway Artillery SSI.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Thanks for posting the pictures.  

 

One thing I notice with the uniform is I would expect to see a service stripe.  That's just a comment, not a proclamation of anything.

 

Another possibility is the veteran put the uniform together to wear in parades in the 1920's and 1930's.  It could all be his insignia, but not what actually went together.  I have had a few really odd ball WW I uniforms that came out of trunks that were like that.  Then as you mentioned earlier, there are all of the possibilities that collectors might have done over the years too.

 

Getting back to the disc, the expert on these is William (Bill) Emerson.  He has written countless articles and books on insignia, and is truly the expert in this field.

[atb]

I am familiar with Emerson's works. The only ID marking are the letters "O D" or "O O" on the lining. Not much to go on. I have examined it in all kinds of lighting and from many angles and found no trace of any type of stripes or chevrons. While I'd like to believe a vet put on insignia from his past assignments, l fear it was a coat with the Railway Artillery SSI that has had the disks added. At a show several months ago, I saw cotton WW1 coat being offered with the same 9/(high crossed guns,)/HQ disk. It had wound and overseas chevrons, corporal stripes, and coast artillery gun pointer patches below the rank insignia. There was no SSI. The seller had no information on the soldier. 

[atb]

17 minutes ago, atb said:

I am familiar with Emerson's works. The only ID marking are the letters "O D" or "O O" on the lining. Not much to go on. I have examined it in all kinds of lighting and from many angles and found no trace of any type of stripes or chevrons. While I'd like to believe a vet put on insignia from his past assignments, l fear it was a coat with the Railway Artillery SSI that has had the disks added. At a show several months ago, I saw cotton WW1 coat being offered with the same 9/(high crossed guns,)/HQ disk. It had wound and overseas chevrons, corporal stripes, and coast artillery gun pointer patches below the rank insignia. There was no SSI. The seller had no information on the soldier. 

I need to revise something. It's was a post-WW1 coat. The CPL stripes and Gun Pointer insignia are the 1921 OD on blue types.